sidecar brakes

Posted 11/5/2004 10:34 PM (#5248)
Subject: sidecar brakes


i own a 2004 Honda vtx 1300 with a champion sidecar. I ordered the disc brake with the sidecar but found that my mastercylinder wasn't large enough to push the need fluid to both brakes, my honda dealer can't come up with a solution so I hoping someone else can.
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SCT100
Posted 12/4/2004 8:45 PM (#5524 - in reply to #5248)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes


Why don't you go with a tandem pedal actuator like I have on my Spyder. Performance Machine makes the unit. Works neat.
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normpottruff
Posted 12/4/2004 10:16 PM (#5525 - in reply to #5248)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes


Good Day,
On most of the outfits that I build I use a completely separate sidecar brake. I often mount a small rear master cylinder from a salvage bike on the frame of the sidecar with a pedal that pivots in line with the motorcycle pedal. You line them up so that the two pedals are beside each other. That way when your foot comes down on the brake you catch both pedals.
Regards,
Norm
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Posted 12/5/2004 10:12 AM (#5527 - in reply to #5248)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes


VTX,
Sounds like Norm has the deal on this!
For what it's worth - I notice you have a 2004 bike. I would venture a guess that your dealer not only "can't come up with a solution" but WON'T come up with one.
Dealers usually are not overly enthusiatic about installing non-standard parts and/or systems - especially relating to sidecars - on new bikes still under warrenty.
Add to that this being a braking system and he is looking at the litigation possibilities from such an operation.
I may be wrong - just an observation on my part.
Good luck with it - sounds like a fun rig!
Happy Motorin'
Dean & Betty
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Bandit Bill
Posted 12/5/2004 10:14 AM (#5528 - in reply to #5248)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes


Like Norm, I employ the dual brake pedal method. Last season i had it set up with the pedal mounted to the sidecar frame. I found this unacceptable considering the difference in mount points and differing pivot angles of the brake pedals.

I haven't seen this done before, but i'm in the midst of an experiment, where i am fabricating a siamesed right hand brake pedal assembly, using a brake pedal pivot point at either end. The footpeg assembly is replaced with a custom replacement cut out of billet aluminum using the pretty crude low-tech method of low speed drill and filing down to size. I've got about 2 weeks time invested in it so far, with about a week to go til completion. I am using another stock Bandit footpeg pivot, and brake lever, as well as a brake actuator and master cylinder purchased off of ebay for pretty low cost, to be mounted to the sidecar frame.

I should have photo's of the finalized result in a week or two posted up on my website.
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normpottruff
Posted 12/5/2004 11:51 AM (#5530 - in reply to #5248)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes


Good Day,
Bill's point about the brake pivot point is correct and that's why I always try to get the two pivot points close to lined up with each other when I fabricate one of these systems. One of the nice things about these setups is that you can adjust each brake independantly so that you can get the balanced braking that you want.
Regards,
Norm
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Bandit Bill
Posted 12/12/2004 12:02 AM (#5627 - in reply to #5248)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes


As i mentioned in my previous post, my dual braking system is a work in progress, but i've got it to the point where it's worthwhile to post a few pictures of where i'm at with the design. I've still got to finish off the brake cable attachment setup, and get the brake pedal inlay-welded in to make a proper pedal end, but the project is now about 70% there.

I've used the footpeg pivot, footpeg rubber, brake lever and spring components from another Bandit 1200, and fabricated the rest using low speed bench drill, hacksaws, and lots of filing.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~wstrong/images/brake-lg.jpg
http://home.cogeco.ca/~wstrong/images/brake2-lg.jpg

I haven't yet gotten to the point of putting together the brake master cylinder and brake actuator, but it'll be located fairly close by, mounted on a rod next to the brake pedal assembly, and actuated by cable.
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claude #3563
Posted 12/12/2004 10:50 PM (#5636 - in reply to #5627)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes



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Bill,
I think I failed to comment on your pics when you posted them at SCT..or maybe it was in the chat room there? Anyhow looks like a winner to me. Some have done a similar rigging where there is a 'lever' that slidEs horizintally to hook both pedals up as one. This lever can be slid either way to keep the braking seperate or to hook them up together. You setup relies on foot position and will work well also with some getting used to. Looks good !
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Bandit Bill
Posted 12/12/2004 11:39 PM (#5637 - in reply to #5248)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes


Claude:

I hadn't thought of this when i was thinking/hacking the design out, but it seems to me, that the two lever ends could be simply slaved together with a joining tube, to make one large lever across, so that both brakes are activated at once, if linked braking is desired. Kind of bass-ackward McGyverish, and longabout way to do it, since cable operation direct off the motorcycle brake lever would achieve the same end with much less effort involved in fabrication The sidecar brake actuator is going to be pushing a little more brake lever travel, since it's got more volume in the caliper to fill due to it's larger size - that could be rectified by a correctly proportioned eccentric lever connecting the brake cable to the brake actuator (converting pull to push activation, as i need to do anyway).

In theory, i'd think a _really_ handy/talented/coordinated person could join the two levers ends together with a bar, connected with gimbels/heim joints, and control both by foot position, proportional to the amount of braking desired on either/or/both brake levers for desired braking.. but that requires more coordination than i possess, and is likely more complicated than is really necessary

I think the present design should do fine, since i can hit either/or/both very easily with minimal ankle angle change, as they are very close together to each other, but time will tell whether i have the presence of mind to do that in practice. It's gotta be better than the old setup was, at any rate




Edited by Bandit Bill 12/12/2004 11:45 PM
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normpottruff
Posted 12/25/2004 12:12 AM (#5748 - in reply to #5637)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes


Good Day Bill,
I used to connect the two pedals together on the systems I built. I would set it up so that if I hit the motorcyle brake it would also engage the sidecar brake but I could also operate the sidecar brake by itself, however, anymore I build them similar to your setup and I like that better. Having the pedals right beside each other and on aligned pivot points makes them easy to operate and it's still a great advantage to be able to operate the sidecar brake alone. Nice job Bill.
Regards,
Norm
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claude #3563
Posted 12/25/2004 1:26 AM (#5749 - in reply to #5748)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes



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Bill,
No doubt your system will work very well. You will still have the option to use either/or which is a good thing.
I do have a question on master cylinder sizing. What is the rule of thumb..or..what is the best way to make sure the master cylinder is of a proper size for the braking being used?
The front end I am in the process of building will have a lot of brake on it. It has a vented disc with one and room for two 4 piston calipers.
I am thinking of using a different master cyliner hooked to a foot pedal for this front brake and using the handlebar brake and master cylinder for the rear brake. Any thoughts or input are welcome.
Yes, there will be a seperate lever for the sidecar brake.
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normpottruff
Posted 12/25/2004 11:23 PM (#5755 - in reply to #5248)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes


Good Day Claude,
I'd be tempted to take a look at some of the Honda linked brake rear master cylinders for a job like that. By the way, I've noticed that bore size alone, while important, isn't the whole story on brake cylinders. The more modern brake cylinders in the same bore size as the older ones can turn out more action. When I changed the brakes on my FJ1200 so that both the front and rear motorcyle brakes, 3 calipers, were operating off the hand lever I didn't get as good a brake as I wanted until I replaced the master cylinder with one from a ZX10. Both cylinders were 5/8 inch but the ZX version was much more effective.
Regards,
Norm
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JerryR
Posted 12/29/2004 2:39 PM (#5769 - in reply to #5248)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes


For a basic Seperate Sidecar Brake go over to the Albums and look at our Heeler Hauler page. I put it together using new Kaw Cruiser Master Cylinder, Resivor & misc parts plus an Early Honda rear brake lever from a 175?? that was in a lot I bought from a closed Honda Dealer.

Jerry
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Huey
Posted 12/30/2004 8:12 PM (#5781 - in reply to #5248)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes


Check out the following for some ideas as to brake actuators
Not sure who the person is that operates the site, but pics are good to the brake section.
Sidecar Technical Hint Sidecar Tech
http://home.jps.net/~snowbum/sidecartech.htm
Hope it loads ok and is of some help for ideas. Pics are towards the bottom of the page.
Huey

Edited by Huey 12/30/2004 8:14 PM
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claude #3563
Posted 1/1/2005 9:34 AM (#5796 - in reply to #5781)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes



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Huey,
The site you are referring to
( http://home.jps.net/~snowbum/sidecartech.htm )
is that of Robert Fleischer known as 'Snowbum'. He is a highly appreciated, very knowlageble and, thankfully, regular contibutor at SCT , home of the Internet Sidecar Owners Klub.
The address for SCT is below.
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Loo4two
Posted 1/2/2005 10:04 PM (#5816 - in reply to #5749)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes


Ever think of useing an auto dual system master cylinder when hooking up disimilar brakes? When building street rods the GENERAL rule of thumb is 7 to 1 for the pedal leverage. Cylinder size is alot more complicated. The smaller the master the more pressure you will have but at a loss of volume. I learned the hard way that if you mount a master cylinder so that it will be lower at anytime than the slave it needs a check valve in the line. This applys to disc as well as drum brakes. Speedway Motors in Lincoln Ne used sell an adjustable proportioning valve for about $50. That was a few years ago so the price is probibly way off. Hope some of this helps.
David
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claude #3563
Posted 1/3/2005 6:54 AM (#5817 - in reply to #5816)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes



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David,
You mentioned Speedway Motors...Excellent source for parts adaptable to sidecars. They also offer free catalogs .
Another place woth looking at is StockCarProducts.com. who also offer a free catalog.
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Hack'n
Posted 1/3/2005 1:27 PM (#5821 - in reply to #5817)
Subject: RE: sidecar brakes



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Summit Racing has quick adjustable lever style proportioning valves for $75.95. Part # WIL-260-8420
1-800-230-3030
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