Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions
murdaughm
Posted 1/25/2015 10:45 AM (#82423)
Subject: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions


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Location: Wisconsin
My first rig - I traded my way in to this project I tried to get good equipment and think I succeeded I have read the velorex installation manual and I read Hals stuff as well as the german stuff. Heres what I have.

43 track
9.5 lead
3\4 toe
1\2 inch of lean out

She's a narrow one. This bike has 4.75 trail. I am working on the starter clutch and adjusting the valves on the bike waiting for parts so what you see here is my first attempt. I'd like some constructive criticism here.

I can make changes to this if you have some ideas......

By the way. I got into this by going to the sidecar rally at anamosa this past fall I got a ride in a k12000 rig. I can't believe I didn't do this a long time ago.



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Hack'n
Posted 1/25/2015 2:33 PM (#82424 - in reply to #82423)
Subject: Re: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions



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Location: Boise, Idaho
The rear lower mount should be mounted at a 90 degree angle from the bike. Like this VTX 1300.
I often lengthen the upper struts so there isn't so much threaded bolt. Yours seems almost to the limit.
Recommendation is 2" of threads still into the strut but that leaves 8" of threads exposed.

Lonnie



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murdaughm
Posted 1/25/2015 3:32 PM (#82425 - in reply to #82423)
Subject: Re: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions


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Location: Wisconsin
Hackn. At 90 degrees on mine I'm 14 inches back from the front. Any issues with that beeing too far foward

And - thanks too all the info from you all at USSCA. I pulled the trigger on a membership. Thanks

Edited by murdaughm 1/25/2015 3:35 PM
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Claus
Posted 1/26/2015 7:38 AM (#82448 - in reply to #82423)
Subject: Re: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions


Regular

Posts: 57
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Location: Northern Germany
I had about the same problem with a near similar sidecarframe: The frame was not long enough to set it in a sane way beside the bike.


I made the frame longer to have a chance with the front joins


Have a look at the clamps I welded to the sidecarframe underneeth the left tube.

This is the final condition of the frame after painting


I always try to mount the lower rear part of the subframe to where the mainstand originally belongs and then build a support against twisting wich is bolted to the footrest mount.

I would recommend to set the two diagonal struts in a way that they lead into the same direction. (90° to the sidecar or both to the front) Otherwise it´s likely that your rig isn´t rigid enough.

It´s a good idea to have the two lower mounts in a distance of at least 20 inches.

In your country it seems to be totally negligible if you buy the stuff to build a rig or make it on your own. For me that´s a dream!!! Here you have to go through a technical examination with the new built rig and you can only pass that if you bought your gear
from a certified company or if you have a master´s certificate in motorcycle mechanics (wich is what I have)
So get a buddy with a mig welder and build a reasonable subframe to fit your bike. It´s done in two saturdays if you do it the first time. And it´s a great advantage for your rig.

By the way: The sidecar axle was changed to a 20mm diameter one due to the heavy bike and the discbrake.

I hope, you don´t think I´m a smart a$$. I just want to give you a suggestion how to do it yourself with a reasonable result.

Edited by Claus 1/26/2015 12:03 PM
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murdaughm
Posted 1/26/2015 9:46 PM (#82462 - in reply to #82423)
Subject: Re: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions


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Location: Wisconsin
Claus. Your comments are why I joined in....... thanks
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Hack'n
Posted 1/27/2015 12:27 PM (#82469 - in reply to #82425)
Subject: Re: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions



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Location: Boise, Idaho
Regarding wheel lead; There are different thoughts on this. Some have only 4 inches or less (ala URAL, Dnep & ,CJ)which makes steering easily, but lose left turn stability and have a tendency to dip their noses into the sand occasionally. Harley has had 8" to 8.5" for decades.

Moving the wheel forward increases high speed stability with reduction of sidecar tire tread life.

A loose rule of thumb for sidecar wheel lead has been 15% to 20% of the bikes wheelbase.

FYI: Since late 2004 the 562 Velorex (Cruiser) has had a redesigned suspension with a 20mm axle and adjustable shock. This sidecar was directed to the "Cruiser" bikes that are so popular now, not for the 350cc JAWA and MZ bikes mentioned by others.
The 563 Tour models since inception have a triple tube reinforced frame and like suspension with 20mm axle.

The mounts have not been upgraded.

In my hundreds of 562, 563, 700 Velorex installations on bikes and scooters from 250cc to 1000 (and higher) I've used the OEM mounts, A combination of OEM and fabricated subframes, or brackets, and wholly fabricated mounts.

Lonnie
NWSC Ret'd.

Edited by Hack'n 1/27/2015 12:51 PM
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murdaughm
Posted 1/28/2015 7:12 PM (#82498 - in reply to #82423)
Subject: Re: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions


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Location: Wisconsin
Thanks everyone. I suspected Id have somemore work. Ill get some more tubing and stock. Ill get this mounted better and follow the guideline from all above. I may fabricate a subframe - probably not for this tug. I'm going to ride this one first and then get more advice - I need to explore this and get some learning the hard way...... thanks for the tips
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Claus
Posted 1/29/2015 3:31 AM (#82508 - in reply to #82423)
Subject: Re: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions


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Posts: 57
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Location: Northern Germany
If you want to make a subframe the best material is seamless drawn precision tube annealed. But you can take anything else with a wallthicknes from 3 to 5mm and a 30 mm diameter (or what´s available in inches). If you find someone to bend it for you, fine. If not, you could weld straight parts together and weld a gusset plate on the angle. I would recommend to take spherical lugs for lower mounts like on Ural or on my first pic. With such mounts attached you do not have to match the joints to a 1/100 inch. This is beneficial when setting toe in and camber without putting tense onto the cunstruction because everything stays adjustable. If you have to force something to bolt together it will break after a while!
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jaydmc
Posted 1/29/2015 11:02 AM (#82509 - in reply to #82423)
Subject: Re: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions


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I have up until now chosen to stay out of this as frankly, this sidecar should not be mounted onto this large of a bike however I wanted to correct a few things the most important is recommended wheel lead. We recommend 10-15% of the wheel base of the bike for an on road bike, we will go a bit over 15% for a dual sport bike.
Here is a link covering mounting a Velorex sidecar that is worth the read. For what it is worth we have since this was written confirmed that the sidecar was originally mounted by a so called "professional" http://www.dmcsidecars.com/the-result-of-improper-sidecar-mounting-...

Here is a link to basic sidecar installation instructions.

BTW Claus, nice mounting job, we make for your bike a new from billet ball joint mount for the telelever front end to lower the steering effort with the sidecar. I have attached a photo. On the left is the stock part, the right the part we make.

Jay G
DMC sidecars
866-638-1793
www.dmcsidecars.com

Edited by jaydmc 1/29/2015 11:06 AM




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murdaughm
Posted 1/29/2015 11:40 AM (#82511 - in reply to #82423)
Subject: Re: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions


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Location: Wisconsin
JAYDMC - what does large imply? Am I doomed? should I just quit......
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jaydmc
Posted 1/29/2015 12:12 PM (#82513 - in reply to #82423)
Subject: Re: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions


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It was nice speaking with you on the phone, The question is not an easy one to answer, some people go by engine size or HP. Engine size or HP does not really matter, how heavy the bike is matters, where the bike carries its weight, high or low matters. How heavy you are matters however I feel that while some smaller lighter people can get away with a heavier bike and a light sidecar, they may sell the sidecar or lend it to some one so we always error on the side of safety. Track width and more have bearings on what is safe. Yes a light sidecar you can add ballast to however at what point are you exceeding the load limits on the sidecar its self? Yes you can go with larger axles, stronger wheels, stiffer shocks, better mounting systems and frame up grades but at what point is it worth all of the effort? Often it just makes more sense to start with a sidecar that was designed for larger heavier bikes rather then try to make a light duty sidecar work on larger heavier bikes. Safety must always come first.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
www.dmcsidecars.com
866-638-1793
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Claus
Posted 1/29/2015 1:42 PM (#82516 - in reply to #82513)
Subject: Re: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions


Regular

Posts: 57
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Location: Northern Germany
Yes you can go with larger axles, stronger wheels, stiffer shocks, better mounting systems and frame up grades but at what point is it worth all of the effort? Often it just makes more sense to start with a sidecar that was designed for larger heavier bikes rather then try to make a light duty sidecar work on larger heavier bikes. Safety must always come first.


It depends on what you get on the local market, if you need to pass a technical examination after building and if you need to build with parts wich come with a certificate or wich are of a large manufactors origin who is certificated.
If you can spend tenthousands of dollars you cay always buy parts of the very best. If you have to meet a customer´s budget and want to get the job it´s better to invest 6 or 7 payed hours to strengsten a frame as to send the customer away.
But I would not competition in a contest called "how low can you go".
BTW: The guy who owns the green BMW rig hit a deer with 60mph with the sidecar. The sidecar was bent down a bit, the tub´s nose is broken, the fender and wheel are destroyed. The bike itself is without any damage due to the spheric lower mounts.
The sidecar frame is still ok, as is the axle and swingarm. So it was worth strengthening the frame and make a proper subframe.

Jay, I like the trail shortening element you make. When I built the green cruiser rig in 2008 nothing like that was available here. Since a couple of years they have something like it at tripteq (a Dutch company) with a German certificate.

And I agree totally with you: Safety must always come first.


Edited by Claus 1/29/2015 2:46 PM
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murdaughm
Posted 2/24/2015 7:46 PM (#83034 - in reply to #82423)
Subject: Re: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions


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Location: Wisconsin
Just thought Id update progress - Instead of modifying the 83 1100 LTD KAWA - I found a 93 R100R to use as a tug - Ill get some pictures posted as soon as I can get the plow out of the garage ---- Its been -10F to -20F and the old girls a diesel and I hate to leave her sit out in the cold............ Im making a sub-frame mounting off the centerstand and front engine bolt for the lower mounts..... Im planning on bending some tube for the upper mounts and keeping all the threaded connection short Thanks for the help - it got me motivated to make this rig as safe as I can....



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murdaughm
Posted 6/15/2015 9:00 AM (#84924 - in reply to #82423)
Subject: Re: Velo 562 -Kawa KZ1100 mounting opinions


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Posts: 10
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Location: Wisconsin
Hi all

Thank you all for the guidance and direction with this project. The Kawasaki turned into a 1993 BMW R100R. Not the perfect tug but adequate for the car. The car went from a Velorex 562 to a Ural. Whew - got my money back on the car in less than 48 hours on Craiglist although I had to throw in a sportster mounting braket I got with the Ural car -

Im not done yet - are we ever done? Im riding out to to Sturgis and hopefully meet some of the folks that inspired me to make this first sidecar project a SAFE and reliable rig - best I could with the funds I have. So here are some pictures of my first rig that Im sure ill have years of service out of .

If you are looking at building a rig you cant get better information than what you will find here at USCA and the knowledge and advice will save you a lot of hours on a project that will take a lot of hours - so join us! And give me a shout any time. I have a tiny bit of knowledge to share and would be glad to chat.



Edited by murdaughm 6/15/2015 9:10 AM




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