Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame
c64club
Posted 6/9/2015 5:45 AM (#84794)
Subject: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Started another project. I Announced it a week ago. Some guy found my forum posts and wants me to make him a rig. Budget project as always. Ok, no problem, let's mount.

 

Tub's floor was in horrible condition. Someone was using it to transport bricks or something equally abrassive and heavy:

floor

 

Some sheet metal, grooved for rigidity. Crazy Riveting Night, then some fiberglass mat and resin inside:

rivets

 

New custom frame, based on Russian style, but with my own changes. Tube diameters like in typical lighweight cars. No tub mountings yet. Damper from chinese 125cc, identical like in my own rig. Mudguard with added wall:

frame

 

Concept View 1, with additional 5 litres tank. Very rigid 2-sided swingarm, one side suspended. Proven patent.

cv1

 

Concept View 2. Mudguard from CZ175, wheel from Yamaha YBR 125, with drum brake.

cv2

 

And some wooden floor for luggage. This will not be a passenger car:

wooden floor

 

Tub will be painted black to match bike's color.

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c64club
Posted 6/9/2015 5:50 AM (#84795 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Ant trat's the hacked bike:

Junak 121

Junak, legendary Polish bikes brand, bought by importer of Chinese bikes. But not so bad bikes now known to younker bikers as Junak.
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Hack'n
Posted 6/9/2015 9:49 AM (#84798 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Quite a custom restoration project, Igor.
Most would have chucked that abused body.
The light bike frame offers a bit of a sub-frame challenge, but I'm sure you'll get there OK.

Lonnie
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Peter Pan
Posted 6/9/2015 3:33 PM (#84810 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Hello Igor...shall I send you my underbowl mold?
Looks you could use it for to get rid of the flimsy plastic in more then one rig.
My underbowl looked worse then that one when I dismantled a reduction gear motor...when I came back from my friends hydraulic press all shafts were looking out of the bottom.
My fuel can is mounted between bike and rig in the back and still believe it is kept safer there then on the front out side.
As small tip you could mount a few folding / swiveling net hooks so the lugguage can be kept in the back when traveling with little lugguage.
Good luck with this proyect.
Sven

Edited by Peter Pan 6/9/2015 3:40 PM
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c64club
Posted 6/10/2015 3:37 AM (#84819 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Lonnie. Yes, a subframe will be added. Some mix of these patents:

lowergmole

 but under engine mounted like this:

footpegz

 

using driver's footpegs. They are identical with these on last photo, because a bike is mechanically copy of Suzuki GN.

So this will be a big "engine guard frame" with two tubes going to footpeg mounts, with footpegs as rear ends. And of course with some reinforcements/rigiders. The first photo is taken from my own bike, which is now equipped with engine guard, the whole set acts as subframe. In this project I will make it something lighter, as one sophisticated subframe.

Rear lowet mount will be made from passenger's footpeg mount, but reinforced in all planes. Something like this:

This photo is my own bike after "Big Rebuild" (some photos under the link) . Footpeg mount is reinforced by upper tube and with thinner strut mounted more horizontal to make the whole mounting more rigid in both vertical and horizontal plane. Works perfectly, 13.000 kilometers without problems, so I find this patent proven)

 

 

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c64club
Posted 6/10/2015 3:50 AM (#84820 - in reply to #84810)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Sven, you have a mold to make sheetmetal copy of lower half of Velorex 562 body? Master...

Good tip with gasoline can. Safer and mounted rear from "the magic balance line" that connects front wheel and right wheel. I don't use an additional tank, only small 2 liters "black hour reserve" in tools trunk.

Luggage hooks, as other "details" as aesthetics and cosmetics is not my role in this projects, but i will give this tip to bike owner.

Thanks

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Peter Pan
Posted 6/10/2015 9:17 AM (#84826 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Hello Igor,
when the shafts had to "inspect the road and decided to stay inside the sidecar" a kayak builder (his Grandgrandgrandfather fled from Germany in 1871) helped me to recover the original form and make a master negative copy of the plastic underbowl for to make a new fibreglass bowl. That became much stronger then the original flimsy plastic. Plus I reenforced it with a wooden beam molded into the fibre glass (at the same time seat pad base). The original mounting holes stayed visible and fitted perfectly.The mounting I did with huge metal/rubber pads from both sides, now the force is fed onto the body on huge aras and not on spots.

My only fear is that Velorex might work with different size mold for their 562 sidecar. (we had that trouble at STS where we used to build radio adapter for to convert Bendix King hand held radios into car mobile stations...the minimum difference in radio molds could throw over a whole 2,5 million $ investment and 3 year work...there I learned the hard way...First step first!)

So: Yes I have a negative mold for a 2001 #562 Velorex sidecars underbowl, but for fibreglass reproduction...The most imortant thing to check would be the circunference at the upper parting line.
I have it in my shop for years and could not decide to convert it into a garden pond hoping that it would serve for somebody else.
But within Costa Rica no hope to find a friend for it. (thera must be some fotos of the proyect here on this forum)
If someone is interested I would happily pass th mold over to him. (transport and customs might become more expensive then the mold)
Sven
Sven
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Peter Pan
Posted 6/10/2015 9:31 AM (#84827 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Hello Igor, here are the photos with the details.
http://www.sidecar.com/mbbs22/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=7589&posts...
Feel free to use as many ideas you want to.
The metal / rubber mounting pads are simple to do. A 6mm steel plate with chamfer. Oring diam 3 or 4mm from the string around the edge as distance keeper and fill out the internal cavity with polyurethane...to that time there was no fast curing polyurethane available, so it needed a week to cure, now the 30minute polyurethane should cure in a night. I used the same polyurethane for rust protection and edge protection...still ok many km of abuse later.

The old sheet metal seat rests sucked so now the simply snaps with the the studs into the holes and is well positioned. Backup plate in stainless steel on top of the old plywood, did not bother yet.
Sven


Edited by Peter Pan 6/10/2015 9:35 AM
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Peter Pan
Posted 6/10/2015 9:38 AM (#84828 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Sad to see Willie Willies now badly rusted compared to that time... Do not let arrange your wife a birthday party .... you need 5 men for to push a Willies like that... he passed several years in the rain, as we did not have so many helpers to push him back into the dry shelter. (not o dry neither)
Sven

Edited by Peter Pan 6/10/2015 9:40 AM
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c64club
Posted 6/11/2015 6:24 AM (#84853 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Great work, Sven. I have never worked with fiberglass nd molds. Only some repairs with 100 grams of resin and a square meter of mat. Patt situation with your mold. It's still usable but transporting it over the ocean... Dimensions could change over years of use of molds. Most of Velorexes in Poland are from '70s - early '80s, maybe some single ones from early 90s but I don't think so. As from 1989 we took oportunity to buy cheaper cars without special gov. permissions, motorcycles and sidecars became a synonym of poverty for teen years. And for many years it was a shame to have such "instead of car". So they are rather old, and made in different technology regime. Also European and American molds may vary, because this is not cruical for them to be compatible.

 I repair this "kayak" with combination of sheetmetal, rivets/bolts and resin-mat "sculpture", also reinforcing it. As it will not be a passenger car (rather winter support and some light luggage space), it should last years. Thanks for this patent:

 



Edited by c64club 6/12/2015 3:36 AM
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Phelonius
Posted 6/11/2015 8:17 AM (#84855 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Is 125cc going to be able to pull that hack?
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Peter Pan
Posted 6/11/2015 9:18 AM (#84859 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Igor, the ocasion you have again a seperated Velorex boat in hand measure with caution the top circumference of the lower bowl, I will check myself and we can have a look how close we are.
For now good luck with the proyect.
In Germany in the 60tees and 70tees motorcycles had such a bad image as you describe too, therefore disappeared all those brands. There are only very few "windfaces" and those will keep up the spirit. Watching your work seems You will become an eminence in bringing knowledge and spirit into a future generation. Continue like that.
Best wishes.
Sven
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c64club
Posted 6/12/2015 3:40 AM (#84876 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Sven, thanks a lot. Just when I get another Velorex body and will have it dismantled, i will measure circumference.

Some people find me a sidecar expert, which I don't feel yet (especially in heavier hacks) Or will never feel like expert.

 

Phelonius, no problem. My 125cc pulled such hack for two years, now it's 150cc. In Philipines, India etc, there are 125cc sidecar TAXIs based on Honda CG/CGL or Suzuki GN. With two seats in sidecar, roof for passengers and driver. Onlyy the speed isn't impressive Normally 125cc with such sidecar and some stuff inside (not a passenger) pulls at 50-65 kilometers per hour on flat road, depends on weather and wind.

 

Yesterday I made eyebolts for the project. Theye're hard to find, you can only buy used ones, nobody makes them now. Last year this lack goaded me to develop repeatable method of making them. Made many tests, tried fewteen welding procedures, then crashtested produced eyebolts. Now I have dimensions, "special tool" and technique. Separate for M12(1/2" and M14 (9/16" bolts. Mild steel "eye" and 8.8 part-threaded bolt, which length can vary from 30 to 200 milimeters, depending on where I need to use them. I always set them supported by whole head, never stiching out from nest, to ensure rigidity




Edited by c64club 6/12/2015 7:15 AM
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Peter Pan
Posted 6/12/2015 11:26 AM (#84882 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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I guess DIN 444B is too flimsy for your purpose, There should be a good norm part supplier in Katowice, (Würth, Hoffmann, Blohm....or others.) I would dive into their catalogue or better ask their oldest stock worker or smartest counter sales person.
Or a tractor spare part supplier.
For machinery spares I did my own eye bolts quite often, when there are no suppliers, but often Norm part suppliers have in their back rooms a surprising out of inventory stock that only those old Wiesel know well.
A indutrial heavy duty part will last normally more then a welded part.

Several times I went to turn out of solid crome molly steel bar (4140) and mill down the flats, still not as solid as forged steel, but better then welded cow's meet.
Good luck.
Sven
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c64club
Posted 6/14/2015 5:28 AM (#84911 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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I wanted to buy some DIN444 just to try if they can work supported by turned element (head support) but they are available only in 4.8 class...

Bigger parts suppliers (orspecialized bolt suppliers) don't have anythyng similar to what we need in sidecars. And even if they have something "non-mainstream" (not standard stock bought b everybody), they wouldn't like to sell you one or seven pieces. Purchase a bunch of 100 or 25 kilograms, and you can buy anything. Witnin Norms, of course. Nothing special.

For lightweight hack, my eyebolts are enough. For heavier, I would rather purchase making of them as monolith from better steeland forging.

Agricultural parts suppliers also don't have such bolts. Or, to be precise, they have, but applicable in Gulliver's hack. Normal hack can carry such parts, but not be built on them
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Peter Pan
Posted 6/14/2015 2:28 PM (#84913 - in reply to #84911)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Yupp, when I looked at it the only supplier with stronger grades had a minimum order of 100 units...100 M14 or M16 bolts are a lot of weight and € for to rest. That makes a good hole in your wallet.
I guess my shop has about 3000Mark in nuts, washers, bolts and other norm parts in stock that never moved since 1990. Luckily I bought most in stainless and galvanized...the black parts partially rusted away in the past or will soon as the Turrialba vulcano started to spit ash 2 month ago.

Those norm parts I ran out of I get each time seriously shocked when I have to buy them new...Whow, how prices went up!
You are right, Igor, what you do not get make them yourself, as long resistance is garantied.

Best luck
Sven

Edited by Peter Pan 6/14/2015 2:29 PM
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c64club
Posted 6/15/2015 4:03 AM (#84920 - in reply to #84913)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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what you do not get make them yourself, as long resistance is garantied

Could you explain, Sven? Probably my english is too poor to understand this or I can understand something opposite.

 

I have similar problem with non-galvanized elements, as now my workshop is placed in cellar. Everything is ok while you use and ventile the place few days a week. But 2 weeks off and you get yhis typical wet smell and first rusty color on everything not coverred with oil. So when I buy non-galvanized bolts, I throw them to kerosene, then dry/leach and this thin oil coat is ok. Also beams, tubes and other material must be oiled to be stored in "metal room".

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Peter Pan
Posted 6/15/2015 11:47 AM (#84928 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Hello Igor,
Explaination: As I live in a 3rd world country and selfdeclared myself 26 years ago a develpoment helper out of personal initiative, I was forced to work with the nails as we call it. => ( Poland always had been a highly industrialized country compared to us in Costa Rica. )
So the only way to get things done and running, was to invent cheap viable solutions. As the few norm part importers had a HORRIBLE poor stock. My tool supplier in Germany had 45.000 different norm items on stock as "complemental service" , while the largest local supplier anounced he would have 18.000 different norm parts on stock...a total lie. I had to produce even simple allan screws for him for a couple of years. I stopped to do so when he became unreliable in payments. Later his supply service became even worse.
As I had to invent or reproduce more then one part, my philosophy was, "What I cannot buy from stock I will build myself" with the help of my best collegues. (including high precision high speed spindles for multiple copy carving machines. The special bearings I got from Germany) As safety reserve I used to construct very heavy duty =>"Sven, You deliver me a Bismark, when I asked you for a row boat!"

The man who used to say the last ruined his fathers factory shortly after I left the place, In return while over 90% of my inventions are still in production or served until the production lines were closed down.

----
Igor, with the humidity in the cellar you have only two ways to get rid of it.
First get temperature at least 3 degree above the drip/dew point.
Second have controlled air interchange. IN AND OUT. dry in, humid out.
Dry warm air is light, while cold humid air is heavy.
The humidity in the cellar comes through the walls, Logically the cellar will become a rust nest when you do not help against that. In winter you usually have the boiler, in summer the window...and the rest of the year you better help yourself.
Two small ventilators can work wonders...at my mother in law I installed 2 chineese cheap extractor ventilators (works for to dry the bath room and to cool the living room even in the worst heat=> no AC needed) . In my new shop room 2 computer fans for 3,50€ with 8W each will do the trick... Using a oven pipe or flexible 6" airduct, send living room air into the upper part of the cellar, close the door and window, and suck the humid cold air from the floor in the opposit corner and send it to the boiler room or out side, or where you want fresh humid not too cold air (example wintergarden)
The main trick is to have continuous air change at a NOT CONDENSING temperature all the time.

My new to build shop room will be a former 20 feet refrigeration container that will including have a water mist cooling for to eliminate the vulcano ashes, dust and acids using a simple fridge compressor for full climate control (cool water mist for to eliminate dust and condense humidity / warm water for reheating and dry air) in cold times the solar system will have to help for heating. You will be amazed how simple and cheap a infrastructure can be controled when the design is right from the beginning. (In my case usually the controler is more expensive then the infrastructure = High end PLC/DDC with recycled scrap machine parts and reusing energy sources that would otherwise be wasted. )
An old house with cellar in a wet surrounding is a whole different story...I see that each rainy season when the lack of heating charges a high toll in deteriorating walls... the water crawls through the walls and the paint "blooms".

As rust preventive I am happy with a 50/50 mixture of thin hydraulic oil with Castrol RUSTILO (a paste like oil / recine for machine oversee shipping) . (for removing rust I add 1/3 Canfin / Lamp keroseene / Lampenpetroleum )
Yesterday I passed the afternoon turning a few parts and got horrified about the rusted inventory and tools in my shop.
Good luck with your cellar shop.
Sven

Edited by Peter Pan 6/15/2015 12:07 PM
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c64club
Posted 6/16/2015 3:00 AM (#84944 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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I have "two small ventilators" mounted in brother's garage and they do wonders. Now it's summer and they are off but still open. Before installation the garage was so wet, that his motorcycle got almost "rotten" after less than year. Now I can leave some unoiled steel parts and they stay unrusted. Also have one PC fan in cellar, pumping out. So we will have to add a next one pumping dry air from house.
I also have a welding place ventillation system that can do over 1000 cubic meters per hour and you shouldn't stand under it in hat When I run it in winter, not opening door first, it sucks all fume from chimney, so I added a trapdoor that opens when a vent system makes some underpressure in room. In dry Summer it's enough to leave it open. But when it rains, I prefer to leave it closed - don't need additional humidity. In winter I open the doors between house and workshop, and "steal" dry air from house, running this vent system at half power for half hour.
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c64club
Posted 6/16/2015 7:12 AM (#84947 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Bike mods. First pre-pre-attempt to hack:


Rear upper mount. "Patent" I copied from some MZ frame I saw, it was called (in free translation) "gespane edition" and had some changes in compare to "standard edition".


Reinforced and rigided pasesenger's footpeg frame, for use as rear lower mount:


Upper front mount, engine guard as a part of subframe, original driver's footpegs (cast steel) acting as subframe-frame mountings. There are not lower front mount yet.
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c64club
Posted 7/5/2015 5:50 PM (#85215 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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A month later (yesterday):

Hack

 

The most beautiful hack that left my workshop. And the first made from scratch to windscreen finish. Everything done using all my experience and know-how, without experiments. Only the front lamp is slightly too big, but it's intentional. that is the only available lamp that looks like position lamp but can have 21W bulb and will not melt. In Poland it's forbidden to mount a headlight/foglight on sidecar, but the position one is mandatory. So we mounted Simson lamp that is homologated as position and can be legally equipped with slightly stronger bulb. Sidecar frame is ry high over the ground,  and it's the best I could do. The next work will be lifting my SC to the same height, allowing it to ride anywhere.

I forgot my camera and my phone (me taking photos on this pphoto) did very bad quality pics. So now I have only one picture taken by Roman (hack owner). After taking this pic, he did his first meters on 3 wheels. Super fun for me to observe it, then I gave Roman a course. How to use clutch, how to ride straight, brake, some big left turn, then tighter, then some right. You know, everybody had to learn it, not everyone had a teacher Afrer course, Roman arrived home doing about 300 kilometers, today he did about 100 with fresh theory in head. We will meet on a Friutgarden Rally 25th of luly, so I will have an opportunituy to take more photos



Edited by c64club 7/5/2015 5:52 PM
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Peter Pan
Posted 7/6/2015 12:28 AM (#85221 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Congratulation Igor,
Your s/c suspension looks much better then the stupid "rubberband like" MZ "Superelastic" suspension .The MZ always hit right into branches and snow blocks dropped from trucks. So that higher ground clearance will do a good job in winter and in the forest. It will be a tippy rig, so Roman should use some ballast in the back of the trunk. 60 to later 30kg should work fine.
Nice work and may the "Janek Igorowitsch" Junak last many years and KM.
Masseltov.
Sven

PS: I would love to come by in the late summer, but am sure that the "boss" will have something against it. Stay Junggeselle and You will not have such troubles.
"To marry is the desperate attempt to solve problems that would not exist without marriage!" Original tone Hubert and Monika from Swizerland who lived 42 years in "wild marriage" after both were devourced.

Edited by Peter Pan 7/6/2015 1:43 AM
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c64club
Posted 7/6/2015 4:00 AM (#85223 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Suspension is very rigid two-side swinarm with one-side damper, that I saw in some hack. Arms are 15x40x1,5 profile, so they are naturally rigid in vertical pos. This swingarm worked in my first hack. I reinforced it to work as one-side and rode it about half year, so it's prooved. Laid in my shop for about two years, so let it serve.

Whole hack rides surprisingly stable as for such high placed tub. 0kg of ballast for me (offroad, I tested) and 40 kg for Roman is really ok. These lightweigt bikes need less anvils in car. My first hack, that I learned to ride, had 8" less track and the car weighted less than half of this. And 30 kg was enough to ride without problems. 30 kg in this makes it very very hard to flip. Also it does about 40mph max, so even a bigger bump can't catapult it.

And it rides like on rails, much better than mine. I would have to correct my car's geometry after all these mods, especially after equipping it in LPG tank. As always, the shoemaker’s children are ill-shod (in Polish, literally, "the shoemaker walks barefoot".

Organizer of Fruitgarden Rally wants me to to make a hack for his younger son, so 2015 can be my first year to make rigS for someone else

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Reardan Tom
Posted 7/6/2015 4:20 PM (#85229 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Good job Igor!! Roman should be very happy. With both your work on his rig and the lessons. He's off to a good adventure.
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Peter Pan
Posted 7/6/2015 6:58 PM (#85231 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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Congratulations Igor,
Your word is runing out and gives its first fruits.
In Costa Rica we use to say "Casa de herrero, cuchillo de palo." = In the house of the blacksmith the knife is made out of a wooden club.
I have done too many automation proyects to count them, but my wife blames me for an electric farm gate since 1994 when I made a manual one...the motor and accesory is in my shop since about 2002 and I burnt it at a client already once in 2009 (shortened 3rd leg on powersupply in a portal crane was impossible to find and when I tested the phases everything was fine until the first movement..brzrzrzrzrt...)...well anyway the gate is rotten and needs first to be newly made.

A well matured swing arm! Just as a good wine!
Thanks a lot for the laugh.
Good luck with future proyects and may Roman learn fast and safe.

Big question mark>? Did you convert your own rig to LPG gas as fuel? TELL MORE, PLEASE!
Sven

(PS> anecdote that should not be followed> may Roman not follow Roman Krause's example. He died in 1986 only 2 weeks after I told him he was not ready for a 750 bike. Roman Krause overtook with 160kmh on top of a hill and hit the hidden bike that came ahead with 130kmh. He caused 1 further dead and a paralysed woman with amputaded left leg. A well meant present from his father turned out to become a real nightmare. Motorcycles in wrong hands become dangerous.)


Edited by Peter Pan 7/6/2015 7:07 PM
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c64club
Posted 7/7/2015 3:19 AM (#85239 - in reply to #84794)
Subject: Re: Another project. 2013 Junak 121, Velorex tub and custom frame



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n

m,

g

gfd

 

My hack and Roman's hack. In his, track is something wide comparing to bike's wheelbase. And thanks to smaller engineguard, looks even wider. Also many Macgyver's patents that overgrow my bike like an ivy, make distance between bike and tub look tighter than in clean Roman's hack.

Sven, for LPG conversion I will set a separate topic in Technical Discussion.



Edited by c64club 7/7/2015 3:30 AM
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