Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor
c64club
Posted 7/7/2015 6:33 AM (#85241)
Subject: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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Location: Katowice, Silesia, Poland

Topic for everybody but I start it as an answer to Sven's question.

LPG conversion is very simple. For most carburetor fueled bikes there only "first generation lpg system" conversion is suitable. It contains a tank, pressure reductor(commonly blocked with evaporator) and mixer. And some filters, valves etc.

In series you mount tank with valve (or with multivalve and filling valve-connector), liquid phase filter, evaporator-reductor unit, "register" screw valve and a mixer. English materials are available on the net.

Mixer I could try to make so called "drill-in" into airbox or into carburetor (that acts as throttle only). Also I could try to make a flow-through miver. But there are ready made "plug and play" flow-through mixers on ebay:

mixers

These are for 50-110cc bikes and for 125-150cc bikes with "generic" Keihin-copy PZ 22 and PZ 26 carburetors. There are also bigger mixers available but with very small flow:

as

I have 200cc with PZ30 carburetor, so I decided to play with the mixer on lathe. Just turned some dimensions to fit them with bigger mounting circumference and bigger flow. Also drilled gas channels for bigger section and made some more holes on mixing section. Then polished everything to give a good flow, now it's better than original.

 

Pressure reductor.  I used standard car reductor-evaporator for 90bhp engines. As it's too big, I reduced a flow between evaporator and reductor sections by placing brass bush in channel and drilling it to get 20% section of original channel. Regulation is still something problematic. Iidle revs on heated engine are unstable or sometimes impossible, but it's a problem only in traffic jams or in town, where I appear very rare. On 300+ cc engines it should be OK. Car reductors just cant give such small flows stable. Small bike (or lawn mower) reductors don't have evaporators and are suitable for slightly smaller engines than mine. So I had to use a car one.

Evaporator. The only problem in aircooled bikes is heating a reductor-evaporator. It's illegal (and not smart) to heat the evaporator directly by exhaust. Evaporation needs some heat, about 2-3% of energy that is radiated to atmosphere. In watercooled machines, you just connect evaporator's heating circiut into car's bypass flow. In AC there are few "patents", now mainly historic. You have to make some water circuit. Heating is most commmonly some thin pipe (6-8mm) wound over exhaust or over cyllinder, few winds. Then connected to electrical or mechanical pump, in some cases it's enough to have natural thermo-syphon flow. Also there exist some "patents" with oil to water heat exchanger instead.

My patent is simple and effective. I bypassed an oilway in head's cap and connected it to evaporator's heating section. Such circuit does double job. Heats an evaporator and lubricates head valves with oil cooled about 10-15 Kelvin degrees compared to non-bypassed head. Also now I have 1.2 liters of oil in circuit instead of 1l standard (evaporator and hoses get 200cc). LPG is generally "drier" and "warmer" fuel than gasoline, so valves are happy with such cooler bath. In first version I modifier heating section in evaporator to be sealed with thin aluminium sheet instead of rubber membrane:

a

But I also gave an old membrane "oil cooking test" and it emerged warm-oil-resistant, so the sheetmetal seal is unnecessary.

Evaporator isn't needed in engines up to 50bhp with big tanks, that work in summer. You just get evaporated gas from tank. Dismantle syphon from multi-valve or install a stove bottle with valve up. Common practice in Urals/Dneprs etc, many taxi and grocery hacks in Asia work fueled that way, also scooters in Italy. But my rig will also work in winter and it needs more evaporated gas than scooter, so it needs a heated evaporator. In non-summer temperatures, propane in tank evaporates way faster than butane, so the mixture proportion changes and that makes another problems.

Tank You need tank with specific multi-valve allowing it to tank without overloading. It automatically disconnects fillng-valve when liquid gas level in tank reaches 80%. This allows tanking non-empty tank, like a normal liquid fuel, without risk of disrupting a tank. I placed small, 20.5 liters tank in car's trunk. Of course 562's floor isn't suitable for installing a 30 kg tank. Also there is required for tank's mountings to withstand 20G deceleration in drive direction and 8G in side direction, to ensure that someone will not be hit by tank in case of serious . So I added a frame on tub's floor, mounted to tub's mounting bolts. Technically, any gas tank ("bottle" is suitable, even the stove ones, only they must be filled outside the vechicle and changed when whole gas is used, so you must have some small reserve bottle or you go more often on gasoline.

Gas pipes - liquid and gas phase Liquid phase pipes in cars are made from Cu 6mm and 8mm pipes coated with plastic "skin". They are difficult to use in bike (especially in hack) but fortunately a Faro company form Italy makes revelant plastic pipes with dedicated connectors, so installing is easier and more siutable for bikes. Also, for Faro pipes, there are some 1/4" thread connectors, so I could use additional ball valve between sidecar and bike, allowing me to disconnect a hack without losing half liter of compressed gas. Evaporated gas can be transported by any hydrocarbon-resistant rubber hose, the shorter, the better.

Of course in Europe they must be additionaly homologated for LPG, as everything for LPG car fueling systems, even if they are marked hydrocarbon-resistant, they can't be legally used if they don't have LPG or propane-butane mark. And it's still not everything - they need to be automotive LPG homologated. The same brass connector or valve with teflon-padding can or can't be used in vechicle's LPG system. Can of worms...

 

Settings and fuel consumption. Settings are done on heated engine, of course. Idle revs go first, set by "sense" screw on reductor. Then open throttle and set the "register" screw on (before) mixer to rich mixture (revs go down), then lean the mixture a little, to get lambda just below 1. This is theory and works in cars. In practice, I had to adjust everything in 1200 km voyage to Romet Owners Rally. After 500 km I got everything ok. LPG consumption is about 5.2 to 5.5 liters per 100 km, compared to 4+ liters of gasoline per 100km, and it's ok as LPG has some lower energy value. Even 6 liters would be OK in first generation LPG install type, which is only set and doesn't have any feedback for regulation. You may use a second generation system in bike if you mount (or have) a lambda sensor. It can do simple and effective work, by telling an "actuator" (servo-valve) to make richer or leaner mixture. Actuator is mounted just before mixer.

                                                                                                                                             

And some "legal curiosity" for those who are interested how it looks in "former close-Soviet world". LPG is very popular car and motorcycle fuel in Italia, Nederlands, Poland, former Soviet Union and Asia. In Poland its situation is specific, only cars are commonly LPG-ed. Every European country respect other countries' homologations for automotive. Poland also, so you can have a vechicle homologated in France and mount Czech lights in it and have it registered in Poland or Slovakia. But this doesn't fit to LPG fueling elements in Poland and Slovakia. Every element has to be especially homologated for our market. You can't use Italian LPG elements in bike registered in Poland, and none of LPG equipment makers did expensive homologation researches in Automotive Institute to make a motorcycle kit. Yes, you can have identical motor in car and motorcycle, but you can't "gasify" the second. Also you can't mount used elements. Once installed, ther'e "formally welded" to given vechicle. So for ex. you have new tank in vechicle, your engine dies and you decide to un-register your car (and junk it in special station, that is mandatory to un-register and stop paying taxes for vechicle). And you can't get your almost new LPG tank and mount it in other car. You know, someone paid to someone else to make such law, oficially it's for safety. Also you can't mount LPG conversion by yourself, only specialized workshopps can do it. But having a new tank, you always can install everything and then find a LPG workshop that say "yes, we mounted it" and they give you necessary document that you need to reister. Also motorcycles can be LPG-ed this way, because Automotive Registering Offices don't have full procedures for non-typical cases, so in many offices it can be done basing on their lack of knowledge. Then it's safest to (formally) "sell" your vechicle to other town/region and "rebuy" it, so it's re-registered twice with "LPG" annotation in Vechicle's License Card, but this card and license plates are made new with every registration. So then you have "washed" documents, not connected with document from LPG workshop, that caused "LPG" annotation in Vechicle's documents. Sick but works. "Sell & Rebuy" also works when your town's office has a knowledge and refuse to give you "LPG" annotation in bike's documents - in this case you "sell" a bike to your cousin, he registeres it with "LPG" annotation and "sells" to uou, so you have to register "bought" machine and get new documents and plates.And generally the best sollution is not to tell many people that you have LPG in bike. The less popular method is, the more possible it's still is.



Edited by c64club 7/7/2015 7:03 AM
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Peter Pan
Posted 7/8/2015 12:40 AM (#85258 - in reply to #85241)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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Thank You very much Igor,
that is a great write up and much better story...
Sounds Polish bureaucracy is worse then German. I knew about dozens of rigs in Netherlands back in the 80tees to run on LPG gas (mainly Goldwings). I was always curious about it. In Costa Rica it is only used in fork lifts, quite a few taxies and very few private cars. Never heard about motorcycle sets.
The gas price is here about 50% of gasoline price, so 25-30% more consume is still a coin worth earning. The real earning I was told is the longevity of the engine. Those taxi drivers I asked, all were full of praise about the few repair costs they have in their work horses.
As I use to work with proportional valves but have no way to get for these valves a LPG stamp I sold my clients a special steam / inoffensive gas valve with ultra fine logarithmic flow curve. and put it on their responsibility if they use them in Gas.
All 3 (4) projects work perfect and the plant safety inspectors didn't say a word yet. Because the equipment what is sold here for LPG gas is compared to my valves 1800 technology with zero safety and horrible energy efficiency.

A trick you might apply. Pressure modulation range (smoothness) for the change from small to larger demand seems to be your main trouble in the pressure reduction. You might use 2 different pressure reducing valves. For idle a small one with a slightly higher pressure set point in line with a strangling orifice (for to limit the maximum gas flow of the small valve) and for the main demand a automotive one with a slightly lower pressure set point, both isolated from the transfer hose by check valves. This is a method I proposed for steam applications and it did do its trick in the 2 cases the clients listened to me. (The others: Tough luck. "Who doesn't want soup, serve him 2 plates!" = In the Dos Pinos plant they still change every 8 month a 2 1/2" regulating steam valve because they do not want to listen to my suggestions. Nor did they want to buy my logarithmic valve bodies, nor the electronic actuators.)

Igor, you surprise us each day more. Think out of the box seems to be your motto.
Are You now including a motorcycle "launderer."?
Well done. (Silesians and Eastprussians have more in common then most people think.)
Sven

Edited by Peter Pan 7/8/2015 1:05 AM
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c64club
Posted 7/8/2015 5:08 AM (#85259 - in reply to #85241)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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Yes, i have thought about separate idle pressure circuit, but ... I'm too lazy in this case. I just use gasoline few more times a week. Althrough it should be nice technical experience/experiment to biuld "idle lpg circuit", the TIME, work and money spent on it will be worth much more than I could save on not using gasoline in town traffic. I'd rather mount a lambda sensor in exhaust, set a reductor slightly higher and use the actuator. There is also quite popular BLOS device that is a kind of LPG carburetor. Tricky in setting but works sometimes better than injector installations.

Longetivity of engine - WOW. In Poland LPG, althrough popular, is rather considered "engine destroyer" in popular thinking. Something like "it makes parts living shorter, but in general is still viable".

Thinking out of the box is considered Slavic feature here. It's required if you want to do something other than watching TV and drinking beer.

The story about bureaucracy is not bout the bureaucracy itself. The law becomes more and more prohibitive. Not prohibitive in manner "that is prohibited", but "yes you can do this, but you have to do a,b,c,d,e, kill the dragon, be a doctor in tax laws and pay xxxxxx for bureaurative taxes" just to make the thing practically impossible. So summa summarum homologating something or building your own car/bike/trailer isn't strictly prohibited (can't be, UE rights etc) but is "impossibled". So whole story is not about bureaucracy itself but on how to "troll" the bureaucracy to make the law appropriate to your case. Office - literally - shouldn't register your LPG conversion, as your installation (not your of course, your lpg-workshop's installation) is not homologated to use with motorcycles. But the case is so uncommon that some offices(officers) wouldn't know. There is installation document? Ok, we register. The whole art depends on finding the regional registering office which don't (or don't want to) see one letter in installation documents. There is "homologation category: M1" (Mx for 4-wheel vechicles of different types, from microcars to trucks) and for bikes there should be L3, L4 or something appropriate to your bike type. But none of installation types are homologated for Lx in Poland. And the better - you must register in your regional (teritorial) office. So if yours is knowledgeable enough to understand that "M1" is not for bikes, you'e in black hole, hence the fictional "sells" to region/town which office is slightly "blind". And the best - officer's mistake is not his fault, he is not responsible for it. Whole consequences are your trouble. Or, rarely, your profit, like in case of registering what shouldn't be registered.
Sick, but Poland always worked such way, we are familiar with that.
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c64club
Posted 7/8/2015 5:58 AM (#85260 - in reply to #85241)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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 Installing LPG in Urals/Dneprs is quite common in Poland (if we can say that Urals are common), so if you need, I can ask few guys about details. As in Poland LPG is really popular, they had a chance to try many cheap used parts to match the best with Russian Boxer.




Edited by c64club 7/8/2015 6:03 AM
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OldSchool_IsCool
Posted 7/8/2015 10:05 AM (#85262 - in reply to #85260)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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Do you find that the additional water content of the exhaust gasses rusts out you exhaust pipes quicker? Have you thought of what would need to change if hydrogen was the gas of choice?
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Peter Pan
Posted 7/8/2015 10:38 AM (#85263 - in reply to #85241)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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Thank you very much Igor. I sit here and laugh instead of hanging on the phone and preach my colleges through their installation work...Its good to think about something else then work.

Old school, gasoline produces nearly as much water as propane/butane gas. The rotting problem starts when the exhaust pipe does not get to temperature and the water stays inside. Remember all those Honda bikes in the 80tees. You used up a muffler in 3-4 years all year round riding and needed soon a new one. While the engines lasted. That is the reason why BMW started with the ugly stainless steel pipes.
So a simple way to avoid a rotting muffler in cold climate cold be to wrap it in thermal muffler wrap, with the purpose that the vapor cannot condensate inside and will exit the muffler as gas. (I see the same effect in the vapor seperation can from Racewayservices (Jim Pettiti) As soon the outside temperture is above 25° there is no slug collection in the vapor can. In Alaska and Canda and USA we had to drain lots of the brown "Capuccino" every 500km)
Sven
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c64club
Posted 7/8/2015 10:42 AM (#85264 - in reply to #85241)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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Exhaust is dry, this mod is about a month old and we have quite hot summer, so every H2O is exhausted before it reach liquid phase. Exhaust in LPG-powered vechicle can rust faster, but my exhaust is a sculpture of patches, so the next one will not change anything. In new car, in moderate climate, one exhaust withstands 10 years of LPG without problems. More rust outside than inside.

 

Have you thought of what would need to change if hydrogen was the gas of choice?

Hydrogene? Probably everything had to be changed. Gasoline engine can be tuned to burn different hydrocarbons, but clean hydrogene? Extremelly expensive hardware, deep modification of engine etc. Nope.

There is also CNG (CH4, methane) used in cars and buses, but the tanks are extremely heavy, the CNG is hard to find in Poland and thus the whole project would be expensive. Buying a CNG pump to compress methane from my house installation costs few my rigs. Maybe I could run on methane, but this would weigh so much that my sidecar would be a tank holder and nothing more. "Proves" in city buses with very small range (ok, doesnt proof, only European Union subventions can let people decide to install it). And I would use whole fuel for trips to closest gas station that offers it. What a crazy idea - I install a bunch of non-typical units that weigh so much thai I may only ride alone (under a term i will lose 15 kg of my own weight) and have a range that is not enough to go work and home again, so I must daily run on gasoline to CNG station. No sense. Worse than electric vechicle that would be equally heavy with the same range but at least chargeable in home (in horrible long time). Reverse progress, good for ecoXXXX  ecoenthusiasts.

I have chosen LPG because it's popular, safe (even safer than gasoline), hardware is accteptably light and doesn't cost fortune. 95% of gas stations in Poland offers it just like a gasoline. My mod wasn't intended as proof of concept or as a toy to run home-gas station-home-gas station But it's a daily driver, my donkey, so LPG was the only reasonable option.



Edited by c64club 7/8/2015 11:06 AM
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OldSchool_IsCool
Posted 7/8/2015 10:57 AM (#85266 - in reply to #85264)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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Yes, hydrogen is impractical.... now. I'm just brainstorming some ideas so that my grand kids can get Grandpa's old rig back on the road in 2115! :-D
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Peter Pan
Posted 7/8/2015 11:14 AM (#85268 - in reply to #85241)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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Hydrogene has/had one single inconvenience: The molecule is so small it wanders through everything and makes steel completely brittle. Logic tells you that with big atoms or molecules you cannot retain the hydrogene wandering through the materials. Supposedly Daimler found a way to stop hydrogene from crawling through the steel...That notice was from 2001 or so...so why do we not have hydrogene cars on the road? Because there are still problems or the big petrol industry does not "want" to have Otto Normalverbraucher ride a clean vehicle.
Big question mark?
I stick to Igor's approach: Make progress in viable projects and over time you get VERY FAR.

Convert the Ural to LPG does sound interesting at that stiff gasoline consume...Anyway the gasoline stays functional and LPG gas burns colder, so less engine suffering when on gas.
Sorry, now its time to hit the road and pick up my bloody Diesel Renault from the agency...lets see what nonsense they did this time.

By the way cast iron after 70 years becomes very brittle and self disintegrates with vibration. So if the engine is made out of cast iron (Ural cylinder sleeves) think of a life expectancy of maximum 80 years. 2090 sounds more reasonable for the grandkids to have Uropa's rig as daily Mad Max ride.
Sven

Edited by Peter Pan 7/8/2015 11:26 AM
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c64club
Posted 7/8/2015 3:52 PM (#85278 - in reply to #85241)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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AFAIK LPG in stoichiometric mix with air, burns hotter and hence the valves in some cars live shorter if they're regulated to fill Euro norms. Of course you can set a richer mixture and it's ok. Only when idle, it can smell like unsealed stove but wouldn't shorten engine's life, and LPG doesn't have these toxic and polluting  parts like gasoline. In low compression ratio engine that is made for unleaded fuel, it doesn't make a disaster, and Urals like this fuel also for longer trips.

If you think about conversion, I can collect appropriate, proven parts for your Ural. Here in country with millions of cars running on LPG, it would be much easier and cheaper to do it. Also we have dozens of fully functional but formally disabled tanks of any type and size with appropriate multivalve units. We make Air compression bottles,sandblasters and oter useful tools from them, as they are cheap and can work under up to 2 MPa and (formally) withstand up to 3 MPa but in practice they are proved to withstand 5-7MPa and sometimes shoot from sniper rifle.



Edited by c64club 7/10/2015 3:09 AM
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Peter Pan
Posted 7/8/2015 9:12 PM (#85284 - in reply to #85241)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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Today I lost about 2 1/2 hours in taxies...the bloody Renault agency made again some nonsense...diesel injection pump fails...one of the taxi drivers said that on his LPG taxi after 4 years the cylinder heads look like a Tilsiter cheese and have to be changed (4 years taxi service should be somewhere way over 300.000km) But due to the cheaper gas and less trouble he would not change back to gasoline.

Thank you for the offer Igor. for now I have to stay still on modifications...ran out of money and out of cars...My wife broke both 2 1/2 weeks ago within 35 minutes...That is female efficiency. So everything depends on the 2 motorcycles and the old shop's service van (600km since January). But in the case I come to Germany this year I will try to investigate a bit into this idea. I like it and can imagine such a modification. One mixer for 2 cylinder would be like we have it in the Jawa...much less trouble with carburettor...
I would love to see a couple of photos of such a setup and possibly more then one of the colleagues here too.
Sven
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c64club
Posted 7/10/2015 2:59 AM (#85307 - in reply to #85241)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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Modifying your only serving vechicle and potentially having it grounded for a month could be risky in your situation. But in fact, this is not a conversion. You only mount a mixer on carburetor's entry, and in case of LPG system makes any trouble, you just turn it off and turn the gasoline cock to ON position. So it's not risky at all.

If you can do any mod to your vechicle without formal troubles, you can just install the simplest of simpest LPG sets. You need:

  1. a big stove bottle in car (valve up)
  2. some hose
  3. pressure reductor - evaporator unit (evaporator is inactive as the gas evaporates in bottle)
  4.  "manual attuator" - some pipe with a screw, or even ordinary ball valve with short hand or without hand (to be set with pilers)
  5. mixer. quite easy to turn on a lathe and then drill 8-12 holes by hand. Drill-in LPG entry is invasive and can be source of problems, so it's worth an hour or two to make real mixer, especially if carburetor entry is round. But in Ural, people often use a drill-in into central

 

Such sets, althrough illegal in many countries, work in Urals. As far as I know, the resourcefulness is illegal only in "civilized" countries The only disadvantage of such set is that until outdoor temperature is over 15 Celsius degrees, you need pauses in voyage (for slightly frosted bottle to collect some heat from world).

Here you have Ural with central mixer just over air filter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Glykj4ufRQ    Mixer is heated by natural syphon flow from heat exchanger on right exhaust, but this guy runs all year, also on Penguin's Rally, so he needs normal evaporation circuit. Here a first version, made a day before rally, because the bike had trouble with carburetors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OdrfnkVK6M Here you have his installation, 12th post from top http://forum.redmotorz.eu/viewtopic.php?t=655&postdays=0&po... . 32mm mixer was too big and made problems with idle, so he made a 28mm one and it's everything ok. 

The most famous gasified Ural in Poland had a mixers just before carburetors:

d

What a slurry gasoline you have in CR, that it makes more trouble than LPG? Nothing to envy, and another reason for convertion.
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Peter Pan
Posted 7/15/2015 8:59 AM (#85384 - in reply to #85241)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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The USA is considering to raise its ethanol content from 10 to 15%...
http://www.sovietsteeds.com/forums/posting.php?mode=edit&f=6&p=5010...

Friends up there. If you do have already trouble at 10% as I experienced on my trip (7% in Costa Rica to its time was already a disaster) then have a look at Igor's proposal.
Myself am happy since Sophie came to Costa Rica where ethanol gasoline got abolished in 2010 and the engine freed up finally.
If on a tour through USA again I would seriously think about a auto /kitchen gas modification.
Sven

Edited by Peter Pan 7/15/2015 9:03 AM
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c64club
Posted 7/16/2015 7:22 PM (#85418 - in reply to #85241)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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There is a simple way to get the ethanol rid from fuel. Mix it with 15-20% of water. Ethanol mixes with water, and its mix with hydrocarbons is very unstable. So after mixing "fuel" with water and waiting about 15 minutes we have "technical vodka" in lower part of tank and de-alcoholized fuel just over it. One can use this "vodka" for cleaning in workshop. Yes, it's sick. You pay 15% more for unusable addon and have to clean the fuel from this slurry :/

Sven, I'm affraid that tanking LPG in USA can be tricky and not always easy, as this is not popular vechicle fuel



Edited by c64club 7/16/2015 7:25 PM
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Snakeoil
Posted 7/17/2015 12:25 PM (#85427 - in reply to #85241)
Subject: RE: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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Interesting discussion. Couple of comments.

H2 as a vehicle fuel has been tried in fuel cell powered, electric vehicles. Some municipality had a fleet of city busses that were powered this way. One of the major obstacle to H2 being used as a fuel is no infrastructure exists to provide fuel for vehicles out on the road. All the H2 fleet vehicles are fueled back at their home base.

The ability of H2 to escape from most common containers due to the small molecular structure has been addressed and it is no longer an issue. They make and sell H2 powered fork trucks that use fuel cells to produce electricity. The forktruck simply mounts a new tank of H2 when it runs out.

There is also the "Hindenburg Effect" which is the misconception that the vehicles are ticking bombs that will level city blocks if involved in an accident. The general public will have to be educated on that one before there could be wide acceptance.

When Honda was looking at building fuel cell cars, they were working on a home fueling station. The original fuel cell was a stand alone device that was intended to run on LPG, which the reformer would turn into H2. But there are reformer poisons in LPG so it became impractical. Easier to simply eliminate the reformer and install a tank of H2. So, Honda's plan was to have the reformer be a part of a home fueling station that was connected to Methane (Natural Gas) which is reformer friendly. You hook your car up and it refuels while it is parked.

LPG is not a common fuel in the US, primarity due to the same lack of infrastructure to support them out on the road. But there are fleets of LPG vehicles, some owned by companies and some owned by govt agencies, that run daily on LPG. And don't forget that there is a huge fleet of fork trucks that operate indoors on LPG because of the points already made about no pollutants. Pretty much all of these fuel up back at their home base as well. It's just easier. You also cannot bring LPG into tunnels in the US. So, although we do not have a lot of tunnels, that is a restriction.

Another nice feather of LPG is no carbon production. It burns clean. They say that when they do rebuilds on fork truck engines because of some mechanical failure, they look like brand new inside with minimal wear. No abrasive carbon to scrub away metal.

We have (or at least had since I am retired now) an agent in Guatemala that ran his Chevy Suburan on LPG. He had the tank in the back behind the rear seat. I'm sure that vehicle is long gone by now. And our agent may be gone as he was pretty old when I was covering Latin America. He son was killed in a private plane crash so nobody to carry on as far as I know.

regards,
Rob

Edited by Snakeoil 7/17/2015 12:27 PM
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c64club
Posted 7/17/2015 6:55 PM (#85434 - in reply to #85241)
Subject: Re: Alternative fuel for hack - LPG in gasoline motor



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What with legal side of LPG conversion in USA? Can you just install and go? In Europe, years ago it was your problem, what you tanked. Now LPG conversions are highly restricted and of course you cannot do it by yourself
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