Leanout
asg
Posted 12/10/2006 10:21 PM (#21632)
Subject: Leanout


Is it common to have the tug leaning considerably more than the standard 2% initial setup? I finally got the BMW R100GSPD (with Dnepr sidecar) to quit pulling to the right, but the bike is definitely leaning quite a bit. My toe in is @ 1 inch, the lead is 13 inches, the track is 46 inches, ( the track is as close as the subframe will allow the sidecar to be and the lead is as far back as the subfame will allow).
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Mark in Idaho
Posted 12/11/2006 10:30 AM (#21638 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 343
Location: hailey, Idaho
I wouldn't say common, but not unusual. I don't have any experts in my area, so I rely heavily on this web site and trial and error (lots of error). My Honda / Dneper has 15 inches lead, with a 52 inch track. I try to keep my toe in under 1/2 inch to reduce tire wear and improve gas milage. To get my rig to track straight, I run with about 3 to 4 degree lean out. Yes that is a lot. It looks all wrong when viewing the rig from behind. Around town, my gas milage is between 34 and 37 mpg. At freeway speeds it drops to 30 to 32 mpg. If I see any reduction from those numbers, I recheck my alignment. I also use my tire wear as a gage. Unfortunately that is an expensive and time consuming method. All rigs are different. I ran into a local sidecarist who's rig leans in towards the sidecar. He swears that it is right and works for him. If you have access to any local sidecar experts, by all means, seek their advice. You will also no doubt, get lots of help right here.

Edited by Mark in Idaho 12/12/2006 9:08 AM
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ignatious
Posted 12/11/2006 12:26 PM (#21640 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Posts: 66
Location: Harbor, Oregon
I've been running less than a half degree leanout and less than a quarter inch toein on my Velorex 562 rig and it goes straight with no pull either way on a flat road.

I am in the process of changing to a Champion Legend rig but I will be setting up the same way initially.

Edited by ignatious 12/19/2006 4:15 PM
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David
Posted 12/11/2006 1:14 PM (#21642 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


I agree with Mark, I know a guy with a Harley sidecar that looks like a hotdog and the bike leans toward the hotdog!! I asked him and he said it tracked fine & the tires didn't wear out too fast, what ever that means.
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claude #3563
Posted 12/11/2006 5:03 PM (#21644 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Originally written by asg on 12/10/2006 10:21 PM

Is it common to have the tug leaning considerably more than the standard 2% initial setup? I finally got the BMW R100GSPD (with Dnepr sidecar) to quit pulling to the right, but the bike is definitely leaning quite a bit. My toe in is @ 1 inch, the lead is 13 inches, the track is 46 inches, ( the track is as close as the subframe will allow the sidecar to be and the lead is as far back as the subfame will allow).

Tony,
Glad to see you have the thing mounted. Have you asked Jay about the setup? I am one who typically runs a little more Lead than many on some rigs. With an outfit like yours I don't think 13" is out of line due to the inhereant tippiness (is that a word?) in left turns. I am sure some like the narrow track width and yes 46" is narrow. Pesonally unless a rig is really a dedicated off road machine I would widen it out to 48" or more. Being narrow does noting to help a rig be stable and there is no real advantage to it unless width is a concern off road. If you make it wider you will find it to be more stable when turning in either direction. In left turns the tip over line is moved which is a good thing. In right turns you have more leveage of th eweight of th esidecar working fo ryou. To gasp this simpe theory think in extremes. Think of a track width of say 12"...not drivablke. Think of a track width of maybe 8 feet. Very stable. Ridiculous yes but it paints the picture.
The toe in of one inch to me is excessive. You shoudl be able to reduce that. Too much will create more tire wear and if you are running an agresive tire on the rear it will become 'non agressive' pretty quickly.
Now , lean out. The only real thing lean out does for you is make the rig track straight. Lean left go left..lean right go right. What it does against you is make a rig tippy in right handers if the bike is leaned out too far.
I am not sure of the placement of Jay's lower mounts at the bike but dependant upon where they are placed toe in can be changed when leaning the bike in or out. You may want to recheck the toe in before doing anything.If toe in was not rechecked after a lean out adjustment was done you could have created a toe out situation without knowing it. Again this depends on the lower mount pivot points.
I once had a rig that wanted to pull right. It was our first sidecar outfit. I had read about leaning the bike out and all of that so on a trip I woudlk stop by the side of th eroad and lean it out. Get going again and the thing still pulled to the right. Stop and elan it out some more. Finally the bike was leaning out really far but the rig went straight down the road. It was scaring me silly in right handers though. When we go hoem we noticed right away that the rear tire was toasted. What was happening was that as we leaned th ebike out the sidecar wheel toes out. This was creating opposing forces when under way. Finally after all the road side adjustment the toe out and th elean out reached a place where they cancelled one another out. That is when it went straight. Bad situation though as it ground that tire off in short order.
Th eeasy way to check a rig to see what is happening with toe in when lean out is adjusted is to unhook both top mounts and then lean th ebike in and out while watching the sidecar tire. You may see the sidecar tire 'steer' as the biek is leaned both ways. If this is the case then you will need to compensate for toe in changes after lean out is adjusted. The culprit is poor placement of lower mounts.
Let us know what you find and be in touch.


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claude #3563
Posted 12/11/2006 5:08 PM (#21645 - in reply to #21642)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Originally written by David on 12/11/2006 1:14 PM

I agree with Mark, I know a guy with a Harley sidecar that looks like a hotdog and the bike leans toward the hotdog!! I asked him and he said it tracked fine & the tires didn't wear out too fast, what ever that means.
Doc, I have to see that weiner mobile some day. Bring me a picture next time you come to the shop or something. Note that on a Harley sidecar sometime leaning the bike in is the answer. Being as there is no suspension on the sidecar that side will not compress at all when the rider gets on the bike. But the biek will. That ends up giving the bike lean out when underway. Oh, I have Angels' triumph and cozy in the shop to be mated together. Cute little sidecar that will be neat once setup and painted.
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asg
Posted 12/11/2006 9:49 PM (#21647 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Thanks for the replies fellas, Claude, I remember reading about your (toe-out) scenario. I am pretty sure that the toe has remained the same. I will double check though. Also I don't know where I got the 46 inch track width from (brain fart) my track is @52 inches...bear with me fellas cause I can tell ya already that I am gonna be a sidecarist for life. I love this stuff...just need to get some kinks worked out. By the way, I initially had a toe-in of 5/8 inch but it seemed like the bike was at @ 10% lean before it would track straight so I increased the toe to 1 1/4 inch. This seemed to help the pull to the right. Toe in does nothing for pull right? If you look at the rig from the rear it is clearly leaning.
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Hack'n
Posted 12/11/2006 11:54 PM (#21649 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout & toe-in



Posts: 4833
Location: Boise, Idaho
It seems we are having that old toe-in thing again with numbers being dropped but no parameters showing how this figure is being reached.
Is everyone in this thread measuring toe-in the same way? (I doubt it).
Track is always the same, being measured from tread center to tread center.
Somehow lean-out and toe-in get measured in many different ways so it's hard to discern where the numbers come from.
For instance, I measure toe-in using the wheelbase of the bike and take my readings from below each axle out to a straightedge placed tightly against the sidecar wheel. Some do it at 8', some at 10', etc.
For lean-out, I use a magnetic angle gauge (protractor) placed on the front rotor with the bike and sidecar weighted to the expected road loading. I look for 1 or 1+ degrees. Rider in place and a ballasted car works well for this. Yep on Harleys too.

Lonnie
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asg
Posted 12/12/2006 6:47 AM (#21653 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Sorry fellas, I know this is old news to most of ya! I snapped a chalk line on my carport floor pushed the bike back and forth on the 10 foot line till the line was dead center of the tires. I then took a 12 foot piece of angle iron placed the ends of the iron on soda boxes and pushed the iron up snug against the sidecar wheel. I measured for toe just ahead of the front wheel and just behind the back wheel. Always lifted the sidecar wheel after an adjustment and remeasured just to be sure
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xsniperdog
Posted 12/14/2006 4:11 PM (#21690 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


I have a Dnepr set up on a Virago 1100 and the leanout, toe in and wheel lead was very bad when I started with a subframe that positioned at 13 to 14 inches allowable lead. I rewelded the rear lower mount to put my wheel lead at seven inches(12% for 60inches). That helped significantly with tracking and my lean out became less than one degree, my toe in is less than a quarter inch, and I added a Mercedes stabilizer damper to take the jellied feeling out. I can steer with two fingers now even when my German Shepherd dog moves in the sidecar. I do not notice any lateral shift, but never know if tires wear anymore or less.
Steve & Ranger Boy
Give me a call if you want to compare notes. 336 678-5089
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asg
Posted 12/14/2006 5:42 PM (#21696 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


I started from scratch (again) reduced my toe-in to @ 1/2 inch. Reduced leanout too. I'll let ya'll know how far my leanout ends up being after I take her round the block a few times.
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gnm109
Posted 12/19/2006 1:17 PM (#21749 - in reply to #21638)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 1370
Location: Sacramento County, California
Originally written by Mark in Idaho on 12/11/2006 7:30 AM

I wouldn't say common, but not unusual. I don't have any experts in my area, so I rely heavily on this web site and trial and error (lots of error). My Honda / Dneper has 15 inches lead, with a 52 inch track. I try to keep my toe in under 1/2 inch to reduce tire wear and improve gas milage. To get my rig to track straight, I run with about 3 to 4 degree lean out. Yes that is a lot. It looks all wrong when viewing the rig from behind. Around town, my gas milage is between 34 and 37 mpg. At freeway speeds it drops to 30 to 32 mpg. If I see any reduction from those numbers, I recheck my alignment. I also use my tire wear as a gage. Unfortunately that is an expensive and time consuming method. All rigs are different. I ran into a local sidecarist who's rig leans in towards the sidecar. He swears that it is right and works for him. If you have access to any local sidecar experts, by all means, seek their advice. You will also no doubt, get lots of help right here.


Harley recommends 3/4" to 1" toe-in.

OOPS CORREECTION:

Harley shows that lean is set to 1 degree in initially initially so that when the rider is seated the bike will be at or close to zero.

Perhaps 1/2" toe-in is not enough. Too much leanout is a sign that the rig is not "dialed in". It's also quite uncomfortable on a trip. I would experiment with more toe-in. I can't comment on tire wear since I never got more than 5,000 on a rear tire with a Harley rig. Front tires and sidecar tires seem to wear OK and fuel mileage was in the high 30's so that's not too bad.

Good luck.

P.S.
Harley does show in a chart in my service book that insufficient toe-in will cause pull to the right.

Edited by gnm109 12/19/2006 9:04 PM
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claude #3563
Posted 12/20/2006 3:30 AM (#21756 - in reply to #21749)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Too much toe in IS the main contributor to poor tire wear.
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gnm109
Posted 12/23/2006 5:37 PM (#21833 - in reply to #21756)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 1370
Location: Sacramento County, California
Originally written by claude #3563 on 12/20/2006 12:30 AM

Too much toe in IS the main contributor to poor tire wear.


I've gotten great results on sidecar and front tires with 3/4" toe in on a Harley rig.

The rears will wear out at around 6 to 7K miles in any case. To which tire do you refer? Are you recommending less than 1/2" of toe-in?

Thanks in advance.
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claude #3563
Posted 12/23/2006 9:44 PM (#21835 - in reply to #21833)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Originally written by gnm109 on 12/23/2006 5:37 PM
Originally written by claude #3563 on 12/20/2006 12:30 AMToo much toe in IS the main contributor to poor tire wear.
I've gotten great results on sidecar and front tires with 3/4" toe in on a Harley rig. The rears will wear out at around 6 to 7K miles in any case. To which tire do you refer? Are you recommending less than 1/2" of toe-in? Thanks in advance.
I will typcally set up a rig with 3/4" or less toe in to begin with. From there monitor tire wear and maybe decrease toe in. It seems that if a rig has good solid mounts that DO NOT flex or move less toe in is better than more. Typically the tire that wears out first will be the rear tire. The Harleys seem to do okay with the Dunlop 491s, The police tires or the twin tires on the stock rims. I have not worked with many Harley rigs with the Harley sidecar. Lonnie probably has much more experience here. Also when discussing toe in we must take into consideration how it was measured etc etc. I can say that on many of my personal rigs after the first set up and the tweakinmg that may follow I could not even tell you what the toe in is. If it started out at 3/4" and I felt that maybe tire wear could be improved by lessening it then it got lessened. How much? Not sure in all cases. All in all we get caught up in a numbers game that many times comes no where near comparing apples to apples. Tire wear is the indicator of how a set up is on a given rig. If one wants to try and get better tire wear usually decreaseing toe in will be the answer. >>Are you recommending less than 1/2" of toe-in? <
Edited by claude #3563 12/23/2006 9:49 PM
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gnm109
Posted 12/24/2006 6:42 PM (#21839 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 1370
Location: Sacramento County, California
Yes, the Dunlop 491 is a good choice for a rig or even a solo bike. I used to use them on my 1994 SE Goldwing and they would go 18-20K miles on front and rear. I'm waiting for my sidecar to come in right now. It has been shipped.

The first time I change tires, I will go to the Dunlop 491's or later equivalent. They are a rather hard tire and generally wear very well.

Thanks.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.
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asg
Posted 12/28/2006 3:31 PM (#21885 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Looking to see if I could con a few of you guys into posting some pictures of your rigs from the rear. I know all rigs are different but I would like to see a few pictures of other rigs (from the rear) so I might compare them to mine. Just seems like I have her leaning too much, but maybe I don't... Thanks, Tony Graf
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Hack'n
Posted 12/30/2006 9:23 PM (#21928 - in reply to #21885)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 4833
Location: Boise, Idaho
Tony,
If you look in Hack'ns Hacks in the albums section here, there are many pix of the rear of Sidecar outfits. There are 7 albums to choose from.

Lonnie
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keyssidecar
Posted 2/1/2007 5:10 PM (#22637 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: Bike pulling to right can also be caused by...


Bike pulling to right can also be caused by the level the rear shocks of the bike are set at. The guy who set my rig up weighed 100 pounds more than I and jacked the rear shocks of my S83 all the way up. When he rode the rig it tracked very nicely, but when I was on it, it pulled to the right. I lowered the shocks to the lowest setting and it took about 75% of the right pull out. I then change my toe in by a 1/4 inch and now the rig tracks great, empty or with my 110# wife in it. Leanout is about 1 degree. Two guys that have installed many sidecars told me the leanout should not be so much that the rider would noticed it when sitting on the bike..... I do not notice mine.

Jerry
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claude #3563
Posted 2/1/2007 5:25 PM (#22638 - in reply to #22637)
Subject: RE: Bike pulling to right can also be caused by...



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Jerry, When you lowered the bike the lean out was increased when you were on it. When the heavier guy was on it it was okay for him but not for you. Leanout is the main factor in a rig tracking straight. Toe in is the main factor that will give good or bad tire wear. Tracking and tire wear are the two indicators of a rig being rigfht fo rany given person and what is right for one may not be for another.
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keyssidecar
Posted 2/1/2007 7:33 PM (#22640 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Not exactly what Bob Darden of Texas Sidecars explained to me the other day..... he says not enough toe in is usually the cause of bikes pulling to the right and not lean out. I'm not an expert, but I think he is. Also I am just telling what helped me and I believe all rigs probably differ somewhat. I have no uneven tire wear on my Texas rig after moving the toe in another 1/4 inch.

Had lots of tire wear on my 1998 Ural.... it tracked straight so I did not mess with any adjustments..... just figured it was the cheap Russian tires.


Jerry
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claude #3563
Posted 2/1/2007 8:06 PM (#22643 - in reply to #22640)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
keyssidecar wrote: Not exactly what Bob Darden of Texas Sidecars explained to me the other day..... he says not enough toe in is usually the cause of bikes pulling to the right and not lean out. I'm not an expert, but I think he is. Also I am just telling what helped me and I believe all rigs probably differ somewhat. I have no uneven tire wear on my Texas rig after moving the toe in another 1/4 inch.Had lots of tire wear on my 1998 Ural.... it tracked straight so I did not mess with any adjustments..... just figured it was the cheap Russian tires.Jerry========================================================= Too much toe in or toe out can usually be felt as a pull as slower speeds as went coming up to a stop. If bad enough toe can have an effect on the pull at higher speeds too. Sometimes not though. Where folks get messed up is when they try to adjust for pull by changing the toe in itself and not adjusting lean out. I foolishly took a rig to W Va from Central Pa that was never setup We were in a hurry to get on the road and I just eyeballed it a little ran it around the block, so to speak, and left. As far as handling goes it di very well on all surfaces from the super slab to the twisties. It did pull a little to the left more than normal under breaking and I figured the toe in was off some. On the return trip with about a hundred miles to go the threads began to show in the rear tire. No it was not a new tire when we left but was not that bad at all. To make it home we reduced speed and kept leaning the bike out in an effort to run on a part of th etire that still had rubber on it. We did make it but barely. I was stupid to leave without looking things over better. When I did check to toe in we found it had 3" pLEASE DON'T TELL ANYONE...LOL.
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Hack'n
Posted 2/1/2007 8:11 PM (#22644 - in reply to #22640)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 4833
Location: Boise, Idaho
I like to setup with about 1 degree of leanout with normal loading and go to toe-in adjustment for the rest of the alignment. This has worked well for hundreds of installations.
But as was said earlier, Tracking and sidecar tire wear patterns are the best indicator of proper alignment of the rig regardless of the numbers.

Lonnie
Northwest Sidecar
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claude #3563
Posted 2/1/2007 8:23 PM (#22646 - in reply to #22644)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Lonnie wrote: "Tracking and sidecar tire wear patterns are the best indicator of proper alignment of the rig regardless of the numbers." That is the bottom line. Some High Performance sidecar have run extreme toe in due to not wanting to rum any lean out due to the wide tires on them.
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keyssidecar
Posted 2/2/2007 8:40 AM (#22651 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


I have a wide type car tire on my Texas Ranger sidecar..... not a motorcycle type tire that I had on my 1998 Ural.

Jerry
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keyssidecar
Posted 2/2/2007 8:42 AM (#22652 - in reply to #22644)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Lonie: This was what basically Bob Darden of Texas sidecar explained to me the other day on the phone..... seems you pros approach the set up the same way. Thanks for the feed back.

Jerry
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asg
Posted 2/2/2007 9:40 AM (#22655 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


This may sound vain but the reason I was concerned about leanout is because my buddies at work would come up and say to me "man, why is your bike crooked...you look like your gonna fall over". So I had them take a picture of me on it and they were right. But, alas, Claude comes to the rescue again...my subframe adjustments were shifting under load, so I was constantly adjusting the damn leanout. Claude, if you see this post, thanks for all the help..actually thank all of ya'll.
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Stout
Posted 2/2/2007 4:05 PM (#22665 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


I've been pondering how to address the ease with which the sidecar wheel comes up on my rig with my light passenger (apart from adding ballast - I'd rather make setup improvements first) and would also like to thank contributors to this thread - it has been most helpful. I think my rig is running considerably more lean out than required. I also think the chair could be lower and further out than it currently is - have been thinking these two for a while, but it was great to hear some more experienced thoughts on all this.

Stout
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tkpinsc
Posted 2/2/2007 5:58 PM (#22668 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


There are several factors not addressed in this thread that affect the amount of toe and lean required for a given rig and the effect that adjustments will have on the way a rig handles.

The speed where you want neutral handling. The wind resistance or drag on the sidecar changes as a square of the speed. this means a speed change of say 20 mph from 50 to 70 can double the pull the sidecar exerts on the rig. Unless you have a way to adjust the lean while riding you have to pick a target speed to set up the rig for neutral handling. It can't have a sweet spot everywhere.

The crown of the road. Narrow secondary roads can have several degrees difference in crown from riding the centerlane of a 3 lane interstate. Again pick a target, you can't have leanout adjusted perfect for both.

The traction of the sidecar tire vs. the traction of the bike tire. The amount of effect the toe in of the sidecar tire will have on the handling of the rig will relate to the ratio of traction between the sidecar tire and bike tire. The amount of toe in on an unloaded velorex mounted to a goldwing will have very little effect on handling or tire wear on the bike. A heavy sidecar with an adult passenger and full set of camping gear will quickly shred the tire of a lighter bike and have considerable effect on the rig's handling if the toe is not perfect.

The toe helps you go straight until you ride through the speed where your front end shakes. When your front end stops shaking you have reached a point where tire slip is equalized between the sidecar and bike, the toe is no longer helping the rig go straight, now the rig travel's somewhat sideways down the road. Before it shakes the toe is pushing the bike and you are steering to compensate for it. During headshake the sidecar tire is pushing on the front wheel then slipping, then pushing again this shake is compounded by excess trail in your front end. When you have passed the speed where headshake ends the rear bike tire and sidecar tire are slipping at their equlilibrium point. The amount of slip in each tire is based on the amount of traction it has compared to the other, and the amount of toe in set on the sidecar wheel. You can demonstrate this by cranking you toe in and out and you will notice the speed where your head shakes changes. If you have reduced trail it will be much harder to notice, but will still be present, unless you have zero trail. This tire slippage is what causes uneven tire wear on your rear bike and sidecar tires.

You can observe the point where your tires change from tracking to slipping if you lay down fresh tracks on the wet pavement in a parking lot and go back and look at them where you accelerated through the headshake. You will see the relationship of the three tire tracks changed in this speed zone. At slow speeds you will see the bike wheels sharing a single track and the sidecar wheel will have it's own. At speed the bike's front wheel track will move towards the centerline of the rig, not much but enough that it should show in the wet.

Amount of ballast. The location of the ballast, and weight of the sidecar is very important. Think of your sidecar frame as a lever sticking out from the side of the motorcycle. 100 lbs 2 feet out will have the same effect as 50 lbs 4 ft out from the bikes centerline. The same sidecar rigged with a wider track will have the same affect as adding ballast.

Width of rig. Once again think of you sidecar frame as a lever. The same exact chair, set a few inches wider, will require additional lean. As the wind resistance movers further out the lever from the centerline of the bike, the more pull it will exert on the rig.

None of this is suggests how a paticular rig should be set up, only to point out that comparing numbers from one rig to another is near meaningless, unless you try to factor in the differences between the rigs. For numbers to be comparable you would need riders of the same weight on identical rigs with the same tires and passengers, traveling the same roads at the same speeds.

This is no

Edited by tkpinsc 2/4/2007 2:11 PM
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keyssidecar
Posted 2/2/2007 8:05 PM (#22671 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


For sure wind speed and direction has a big effect on pull, especially if you have a substaintial windsheild (drag) on the sidecar. As for my rig, after changing the toe in so there is no more pull to the right, I have not noticed any pull one way or the other all the way to 80 mph. Before changing the toe in the faster I went, the more the rig pulled to the right.
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claude #3563
Posted 2/2/2007 8:21 PM (#22673 - in reply to #22665)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Originally written by Stout on 2/2/2007 4:05 PM

I've been pondering how to address the ease with which the sidecar wheel comes up on my rig with my light passenger (apart from adding ballast - I'd rather make setup improvements first) and would also like to thank contributors to this thread - it has been most helpful. I think my rig is running considerably more lean out than required. I also think the chair could be lower and further out than it currently is - have been thinking these two for a while, but it was great to hear some more experienced thoughts on all this.Stout
What sidecar and bike do you have Stout?
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Bilgekeeldave
Posted 2/3/2007 5:37 PM (#22690 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


The factory recomendation for my Dnepr MT-16 is zero lean out and 1/4 to 3/8 inches of toe in. Because of its full time two wheel drive, it has less lead than the MT-11, about 6", the lead is not adjustable.

With the driven/braked sidecar wheel, it doesn't pull one way or the other, when accelerating or braking and it seems immune to road camber.

I have a windshield on the sidecar, but not on the tug. A headwind just slows the rig down, it doesn't push it one way or another.

Of course it has a top speed of only 60 mph, maybe if it went faster, I would notice it pulling one way or another at speed.

Dave
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gnm109
Posted 2/3/2007 8:24 PM (#22696 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 1370
Location: Sacramento County, California
It's interesting that you have a full-time two wheel drive. Does it have a differentlal in the drive unit?

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Bilgekeeldave
Posted 2/3/2007 11:04 PM (#22701 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Yes, it has a differential. It also has a rather elaborate system of two planetary gear boxes and a spring steel shaft to the sidecar to allow for sidecar wheel lead and adsorbing the shock of the hack wheel bouncing and grabbing for traction on rough surfaces. The driveshaft to the sidecar wheel turns in the opposite direction of the wheels at about twice the wheel speed.

Flying the car is a very temporary thing with the two wheel drive, when the hack wheel comes off the ground, all the torque is diverted to the wheel in the air, the rig slows and the wheel comes down.

Dave
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gnm109
Posted 2/4/2007 10:00 AM (#22706 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 1370
Location: Sacramento County, California
Very good.

I read the recent article in Cycle World by Peter Egan about the trip he took with his wife in a Ural. It has a selectable 2WD but there is no differential. Therefore, he was advised by the distributor that he should only use the 2WD on soft ground, not on the pavement.

Your system sounds more sophisticated.

Thanks.

GNM109
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RedMenace
Posted 2/4/2007 11:36 AM (#22711 - in reply to #22668)
Subject: RE: Leanout


THanks for posting this, Tod. This may be the clearest explanation i have seen yet. I am saving it to consider more thoughtfully and perhaps play with a bit.

"There are several factors not addressed in this thread that affect the amount of toe and lean required for a given rig and the effect that adjustments will have on the way a rig handles...(concise and astute observations snipped-read previous post by tkpinsc)"



Edited by RedMenace 2/4/2007 11:43 AM
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claude #3563
Posted 2/4/2007 8:11 PM (#22720 - in reply to #22711)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Originally written by RedMenace on 2/4/2007 11:36 AM

THanks for posting this, Tod. This may be the clearest explanation i have seen yet. I am saving it to consider more thoughtfully and perhaps play with a bit."There are several factors not addressed in this thread that affect the amount of toe and lean required for a given rig and the effect that adjustments will have on the way a rig handles...(concise and astute observations snipped-read previous post by tkpinsc)"
Ditto Tod, good post and a lot of stuff to think on. YOU SHOUDL POST MORE OFTEN!
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Stout
Posted 2/6/2007 4:23 PM (#22766 - in reply to #22673)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Claude,
I have a '77 BMW R100RS with a California Friendship II. I have uploaded a couple of images to my album on this site.
Stout
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claude #3563
Posted 2/6/2007 5:44 PM (#22767 - in reply to #22766)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Originally written by Stout on 2/6/2007 4:23 PM

Claude,I have a '77 BMW R100RS with a California Friendship II. I have uploaded a couple of images to my album on this site.Stout
Stout, I had asked you what your rig was because you had concens of the wheel coming up easily. Looked at you pics, very very nice lookimg rig! What kind of track width are you running? This means from center of rear bike tire to center of sidecar tire. I like to run between 48 and 52 inches with the wider preferred. Never could see any advantage to a narrow track as it does nothig for satbility and also can make working on the biek a hassle, especially with an airhead. Another factor is sidecar wheel lead. On our personal outfits we usually run a little more lead than many. This adds stability in left handers for us. It will also allow the sidecar wheel to come up easier which was your complaint to begin with. Keep in mind that everything is a compromise and what is 'right' for you may not be for someone else. It depends on riding style etc. I typically run a lot of twisty roads and prefer to run a sidecar on the heavier side with more lead. This gives it a good stability factor in left handers and also makes it behave well in right handers due to weight alone. We sometimes run a swaybar as well which makes a ton of difference but that is another story. Ballast? Al ballast is is a way to make a sidecar that may be lighter than it shoudl be a litttle heavier. Witha good suspension on th ehack a 'ballasted sidecar' can actually run better than a sidecar that is the same weight. This is because th eplacement of added ballast can be where it will be to your advantage. This is to th erear and as close to the outside as possible. Never add ballast in the nose!! Some speak lowly of adding ballast and I cannot understand why. If th esidecar is too light for you make it heavier as long as the suspension can handle it of course. There are no bragging rights in be able to run a ligth sidecar over a heavy one if it is not handling well. Nothing macho about creeping arond right handers or having to be a world class gymnist to get through the twisties. All in all..widen the track width if possible...add balalst if needed..and practice a lot. Your rig should be a decen thandler in time after a little tweaking here and there. From that point it can always be made even better through suspension mods and maybe a swaybar. Hope this made some common sense. Others may think otherwise but that's okay. Let's go run some twisties ...........................................................Sorry that there are no paragraphs in my posts. For some reason they never show up on thsi site recently.

Edited by claude #3563 2/6/2007 5:46 PM
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MikeS
Posted 2/6/2007 9:41 PM (#22770 - in reply to #22668)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 60
Location: Grand Marais, MN
Tod

I appreciate your explanation of tracking before, during, and after the "head shake" period. It helps me grasp at some issues.

I have an complete EML Tourist T conversion on a '81 Wing, and the one thing that stills boggles me is rear drive tire wear. I have about 2* outward lean (loaded with 180# sand bags on the mule), which is very significant lean, but is an increase from my previous set ups. Toe in is about 3/4". One of the issues I'm concerned about is that my rear tire wears on the sidecar side of the tire. It seems a little less with the increased lean, but time will tell. I still don't understand, with even 1* outward lean, why the tire would wear on the sidecar side. Most of my miles are at highway speed, so I'm crabbing most of the time. I'd think the left side of the drive tire would wear faster than the sidecar side.

One issue I have in suspect is that my sidecar wheel has lean to it, lean away from the sidecar and mule. This might be an issue, but I'm not sure if/what it will do to the performance or tire wear. The sidecar wheel lean wouldn't be difficult to change, with some shims. My rig has two plates and six bolts on a plate where the sidecar suspension mounts to the sidecar frame - used for toe in adjustment. I can have tapered shims manufactured and placed between these plates. I'm not sure if this is a critical issue or not. It's suspect because logic says the sidecar wheel lean should contribute to pull to the right. Maybe my strange drive tire wear is effected by this, but I don't understand how.

I'm interested in any input on these issues.
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claude #3563
Posted 2/6/2007 10:36 PM (#22774 - in reply to #22770)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Mike wrotene issue I have in suspect is that my sidecar wheel has lean to it, lean away from the sidecar and mule. This might be an issue, but I'm not sure if/what it will do to the performance or tire wear. The sidecar wheel lean wouldn't be difficult to change, with some shims. My rig has two plates and six bolts on a plate where the sidecar suspension mounts to the sidecar frame - used for toe in adjustment. I can have tapered shims manufactured and placed between these plates. I'm not sure if this is a critical issue or not. It's suspect because logic says the sidecar wheel lean should contribute to pull to the right. Maybe my strange drive tire wear is effected by this, but I don't understand how.====================================================Sidecar wheel lean is very seldom mentioned bu tit can be an advantage or a disadvatage. The sidecar wheel should be vertical as a rule although leaning it in towars th esidecar at th etop can be advantageous. The only one I have seen mention it here has been Vernon Wade. I have built a couple of rigs and purposely leaned the sidecar wheel in slightly and ,yes, it does take pull away, allows less leanout to be run and you can reduce toe in a little more dependant upon the geometry of the sidecar swingarm and it's pivot. I may be wrong but if you were to make that wheel vertical or lean it in some I think you could run less toe in and less leanout than you have now. It probably will get rid or you rtire wear delima too. Don't hurt to try and at least on that EML you can do it without it being a major deal.
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Stout
Posted 2/7/2007 2:22 AM (#22776 - in reply to #22767)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Claude,
According to my notes from some very rough measurements I made a while ago, the track of my rig is 46-47" and the sidecar wheel lead about 13". I haven't actually measured lean out yet, but believe it must be 3-5 degrees without me on the bike. I made a rough measurement with a square against the front tyre and found 0.5-0.75" difference between top and bottom (19" wheel) I only had a 2' long straight-edge handy at the time, but measured the toe-in as 0.25" over this length. It all tracks nice and straight with no adverse tyre wear in the 1500 miles I have done so far, but as I mentioned, it comes up a little too easily for my liking. I'm a fan of ballast and like to move weight from the bike to the sidecar wherever possible - I put a larger, SLA battery right over the sidecar wheel in my first rig and removed the one from the XS11 hack. I also used to carry 5 gallons of fuel in the trunk, which usually came in handy riding an XS11 with only a 4 gallon tank! I also already have a couple of gallons of water in the trunk of the Friendship II as an interim measure, but I'd like to get the basic geometry as good as it can be and I don't think this rig is there yet - I had already identified the width and height of the sidecar mounting position as areas for improvement, but had not realised the contribution lean out makes to lifting of the sidecar wheel until reading this thread. I have always thought (just from the feel of the rig as the wheel lifts) that sidecar suspension travel is part of my problem - it just seems to keep on pushing the bike up. I've therefore been following the sway bar discussions with interest for some time, but again, I want to sort the basics out first. I know you (and others) manufacture custom sway bar installations, but I'd be interested in where to get raw materials to do it myself if you wouldn't mind sharing this info - it can be tough trying to find stuff in a foreign country I'd also be interested in an indicative price to manufacture and ship a bar kit if I provided you the measurements - could you send me a PM with this please?
Appreciate the responses. Sometime in the next few days I'll snap a few images of the rig to record what how everything looked before I started making adjustments (to complement the detailed measurements I'll also be making) and I will post before / after shots in my album.
Stout
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Joyce
Posted 2/7/2007 6:48 AM (#22781 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


I'll give it a try Claude. It may be the html button in your settings
Joyce
Stout wrote:>>(I)had not realised the contribution lean out makes to lifting of the sidecar wheel until reading this thread.<<<

Stout, From what you wrote above I feel all of it is a contributor to a light feeling sidecar in right handers. No surprize that it tracks straight but that is not your main concern. I would suggest you widen the track width. I wrote previously that 48- 52" is typical for me when we set up a sidecar and that I lean toward the wider of the two. We have done wider ones than 52" also. To get an idea about what track width does for you hold a heavy object with one hand close to your chect and pick it up...easy right? Then hold it at arms length and pick it up...harder to do because of the leverage working against your efforts to lift it. Also, think of a sidecar rig if it had , say, a track width of 18", pretty absurd right. But it would be very unstable in both directions. Now think of one with a track width of 10 feet and the idea begins to make sense. Some HP sidecars are almost as wide as they are long.
13" of lead with the narrow width you have is also working against you in right handers. Good in lefties as it moves the so called tip over line forward but in right handers it allows the sidecar wheel to get light easier.
3 to 5 degrees of lean out is quite a bit too. If this is without you on the bike it is really a lot as when you get on the bike, the suspension will sag and the whole rig will tilt over to the bike side. This in essence creates even more leanout so to speak. Yes, lean out is definatley a consideration to instability in right turns. Think of it in a way as having the rig set up so it is already trying to pick up the sidecar wheel when standing still. Oversimplification? Probably, but who cares.
Overall I would do a re setup on the rig by first widening the track width. Then try it out and you will see some difference, maybe a lot. From there I would reduce leanout and add ballast if you want to.
A stiffer shock on the rear of the bike may be a benefit. If yours has high milage on it just replacing it with a stock one may help. Beemerboneyard is a good souce price wise. (Google them)
As a last thing possibly reduce wheel lead. You have a bike that is not real heavy and this sidecar shoudl work pretty good on it. Due that the rear of the bike does not carry a lot of weight itself I would try and get it working with the lead you have.
Due to the fender design on the California sidecars you will only be able to lower it so much and reatain clearance for wheel travel. It has been done and some have even converted them to a rigid suspension that allows one to set the body down onto the wheel very close. Does nothing for ride comfort though unless body is suspensded and then we are right back where we started in a way. We have converted soem of the California sidecars that had the small leaf torsion bar suspensions over to a real torsion bar with a manual tilt adjustor built in. This works well but isn't a real necessity to get the thing handling okay. Dauntless offers a conversion to a coil over shock deal that had a heim end supported and pivoted tube running across the sidecar with the shock mounted on the left of the body. I have no experience with this setup. Swaybars are a huge improvment on any rig. Quite a bit has been written here on the as you mentioned
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claude #3563
Posted 2/7/2007 7:04 AM (#22782 - in reply to #22781)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
I disabled HTML.
We will see what happens.

Thanks Joyce
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tkpinsc
Posted 2/7/2007 1:01 PM (#22793 - in reply to #22770)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Hi Mike.

My r100rt rig wears the same pattern on the tread. More and faster on metzler k-block then on the Avon sm. The wear is from the rig crabbing down the road. The sidecar side of the rear tire is the trailing edge if you think about how the rig travels. The wind pushing backwards on the sidecar pushes the rear of the bike outwards against the forward motion of the rig. The toe in on the sidecar also tries to bring the sidecar backwards to make the tire track forward. I think it is the trailing edge of a tire that takes the most wear, not sure. I mostly live with the residual wear, after striving to setup the rest of the rigs paramenters best I can. If the rig is properly setup, to reduce wear futher you need to lower the wind resistance of the sidecar, and/or move the center point of resistance closer to the bike by reducing the track width of the rig. Of course some would say that slowing down would help prolong tire wear, but that has never seemed like a viable option to me. I don't know how to make a significant change in the drag of a chosen chair, except to remove the windshield, and I prefer to reap the benefits of a wider track, even at the price of shorter tire life. If you look carefully at your tire you should see slivers of rubber kinda rolling off the edge that is showing the most wear. You should also see a mirror image of the wear, though less pronounced on the sidecar tire.

I run a slight inward lean to my sidecar wheel with the idea it will help track straight, similar to leanout on the bike. I think it helps more then excessive toe in, but not much, as the sidecar tire has less traction to work with then the bike's tires. I would get rid of any leanout on the sidecar wheel. Possibly aim at verticle when at rest, then when you climb on you will have a slight lean in as your weight is added to the bike. I trust 3/4" is over the length of the rig, and not the length of the wheel?

Any toe in excess of the minimum needed to take up slop in the bearings, mounts, suspension etc. to insure there is never toe out, is excessive and will contribute to tire wear in the pattern you describe. On an EML it should not take very much toe in as the EML rigs I've seen are all very stout and seem to have very little built in flex.

As I mentioned in the beginning different tires will wear markedly different with the same rig setups, so depending what you are using it might pay to try a different rear tire.

I think if I was to experiment I'd try to straighten up the sidecar wheel, and probably cut back a little on the toe-in and try it out.

Edited by tkpinsc 2/7/2007 3:05 PM
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MikeS
Posted 2/7/2007 6:00 PM (#22797 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 60
Location: Grand Marais, MN
Thanks Tod & Claude

My EML rig has rock solid sidecar mounts to the mule, and my GL1100 has a full frame. I don't have any slop that I can detect. I'm sure any is very minimal.

Thanks Tod for that explanation of rear tire wear. I do understand what's going on, and the direction of the slip on the mule's drive tire. My take on that condition, using north woods engineering and southern intuition, is that the wear should have been on the leading edge of the tire tread, not the following side. Interesting to see real world conditions, namely your BMW plus my rig shows the same wear pattern.

I'm running 135-15's on the sidecar and steer wheels, and 165-15 on the mule's drive wheel-all of them car tires. I now have a HT Wheels rear wheel on the mule, after the EML wheel broke welds. I still have the original EML welded tubular spoke wheels on the other two wheels.

I've suspected it's a good idea to change the lean of the sidecar wheel. I have a friend from the Dakotas who also mounts sidecars, and he does like to see the sidecar wheel tilted towards the mule, if at all possible.
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claude #3563
Posted 2/7/2007 6:15 PM (#22798 - in reply to #22797)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Mike that 165 is taller than the 135 so it would lift the rear of the bike up some. That alone could change things in the setup.
As far as wear pattens go it should also be taken into account thant many will rip around left handers a lot different than right handers. This will creeate wear on the right side of the rear tire. Especailly true on soft sprung rigs and/or rigs with no swaybar.
I think it would be very interesting to get a rig up onto a straight section of interstate. let the tires cool down and then do a straightline run at speed over a few miles. Then stop and take a temperature reading at varius places across the rear tire. Oh well, just a thought.
Tod, you certainly have a great way of explaing things. Keep those posts coming.


Edited by claude #3563 2/7/2007 6:18 PM
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keyssidecar
Posted 2/9/2007 9:31 AM (#22815 - in reply to #22770)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Mike: I have more wear on the inside of my sidecar tire than the outside... recently looking at it I noticed that my sidecar tire is tipped toward the inside at the top and that is probably where the tire wear is coming from. Pain in the rear to correct this on my rig.... basically take everything apart from the bike and raise the sidecar on the bike side. 2006 Suzuki S83 and Texas Ranger.

Pics of my rig posted under albums.... keyssidecar

Jerry
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claude #3563
Posted 2/9/2007 6:09 PM (#22830 - in reply to #22815)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Originally written by keyssidecar on 2/9/2007 9:31 AM

Mike: I have more wear on the inside of my sidecar tire than the outside... recently looking at it I noticed that my sidecar tire is tipped toward the inside at the top and that is probably where the tire wear is coming from. Pain in the rear to correct this on my rig.... basically take everything apart from the bike and raise the sidecar on the bike side. 2006 Suzuki S83 and Texas Ranger.

Pics of my rig posted under albums.... keyssidecar

Jerry


Jerry,
This is not that uncommon. Heck less rolling resistance right? If you can deal with the tire wear you might be better off just leaving it alone.
We have noticed that on some sidecars the mounting tower for the swingarm pivot is not 90 degrees to the sidecar frame. If you get the siedecar fram elevel from side to side the sidecar wheel is not vertical. From my experience Velorex sidecars, especially, seem to vary somewhat from hack to hack, at least on the older ones. Dunno about Bob's sidecars for sure but I bet they are dead on.
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bmwzenrider
Posted 2/9/2007 11:49 PM (#22834 - in reply to #22706)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 90
Location: Hubertus, WI
Originally written by gnm109 on 2/4/2007 9:00 AM
I read the recent article in Cycle World by Peter Egan about the trip he took with his wife in a Ural. It has a selectable 2WD but there is no differential. Therefore, he was advised by the distributor that he should only use the 2WD on soft ground, not on the pavement.

Your system sounds more sophisticated.
GNM109


It all depends on what you hope to accomplish with the two-wheel-drive mode...
If you are looking for ultimate traction in loose conditions NOT having a differential is better.

A differential allows the wheel with less traction to spin and not drive the the wheel with higher traction. As evidenced by what happens when a differential sidecar flies the chair...

The differential drive will give you a little better tracking than a standard rig, but a fixed axle 2WD unit will give the best overall traction. They talk about not using it that way on hard surfaces because of tire scrubbing and stress on the drive unit when trying to turn.

I have been going back and forth about possibly getting a 2WD setup for winter use, but can't decide which drive system would be better. I have been leaning towards the selectable 2WD with fixed axle drive for better traction on snowy roads, but I would need to be careful about using it in situations where the pavement transitions between wet/slick and dry.
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keyssidecar
Posted 2/10/2007 4:41 PM (#22847 - in reply to #22830)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Claude: Bob has offered to set it up right for the price of lunch. Can't beat that deal. So on my way back to Michigan from the Keys in May I am going to Texas and have him take care of it. Just about 2 days out of my way, so no big deal. I am retired so not all that much better to do anyway. Will ride the rig down here as it is for now... tracking straight anyway.... may have to flip the tire around before spring. As you said less tire on the ground less friction.

Jerry
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claude #3563
Posted 2/11/2007 9:31 AM (#22858 - in reply to #22847)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2480
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Sounds like a winner Jerry. Bob is a great guy and no doubt working with him will clear your concerns. Be careful though as he can eat. Tell him the jerk in Pa. said hello. Let us know how you make out.
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keyssidecar
Posted 2/11/2007 11:31 AM (#22866 - in reply to #22858)
Subject: RE: Leanout


I will let him know Claude says HI
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Bilgekeeldave
Posted 2/17/2007 1:18 AM (#22986 - in reply to #22834)
Subject: RE: Leanout




I have been going back and forth about possibly getting a 2WD setup for winter use, but can't decide which drive system would be better. I have been leaning towards the selectable 2WD with fixed axle drive for better traction on snowy roads, but I would need to be careful about using it in situations where the pavement transitions between wet/slick and dry.


You could put independently operated brakes on the rear wheel of the tug and the hack. If a wheel started to spin on a slippery surface, you could just brake a little on the spinning wheel and the diff. would transfer the torque to the unbraked wheel. Put the two rear brake pedals close together, so that you can push them both at the same time for even brakeing.

Dave

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Hack'n
Posted 2/21/2007 4:56 PM (#23087 - in reply to #22986)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 4833
Location: Boise, Idaho
One of the problems with (at least the earlier URAL's) the differentials was that if one was on the throttle when the chair was aloft then landed, there was a possibility of breakage.

Lonnie
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MikeS
Posted 6/3/2008 7:11 PM (#36264 - in reply to #22774)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 60
Location: Grand Marais, MN
Claude

I received an email notification of this thread, motivating me to read through it. I see the quote and your response below concerning sidecar wheel camber.

Last fall I had a shim made up for my sidecar wheel, and it's now vertical. Previously the top of the sidecar wheel tilted out. As a result of the effect the shim has on performance of my rig, I've adjusted the lean of the mule to a bit under 1* outward lean. My toe in is reduced too, to about 3/8". The rig has absolutely no pull most of the time - I can operate it no handed sometimes. I've even experienced a little pull to the left, meaning I can reduce outward lean even more.

So yes, the camber of the sidecar wheel does make a difference. I will be watching to see how/if this effects the wear of my mule drive tire.


Originally written by claude #3563 on 2/6/2007 10:36 PM

Mike wrotene issue I have in suspect is that my sidecar wheel has lean to it, lean away from the sidecar and mule. This might be an issue, but I'm not sure if/what it will do to the performance or tire wear. The sidecar wheel lean wouldn't be difficult to change, with some shims. My rig has two plates and six bolts on a plate where the sidecar suspension mounts to the sidecar frame - used for toe in adjustment. I can have tapered shims manufactured and placed between these plates. I'm not sure if this is a critical issue or not. It's suspect because logic says the sidecar wheel lean should contribute to pull to the right. Maybe my strange drive tire wear is effected by this, but I don't understand how.====================================================Sidecar wheel lean is very seldom mentioned bu tit can be an advantage or a disadvatage. The sidecar wheel should be vertical as a rule although leaning it in towars th esidecar at th etop can be advantageous. The only one I have seen mention it here has been Vernon Wade. I have built a couple of rigs and purposely leaned the sidecar wheel in slightly and ,yes, it does take pull away, allows less leanout to be run and you can reduce toe in a little more dependant upon the geometry of the sidecar swingarm and it's pivot. I may be wrong but if you were to make that wheel vertical or lean it in some I think you could run less toe in and less leanout than you have now. It probably will get rid or you rtire wear delima too. Don't hurt to try and at least on that EML you can do it without it being a major deal.


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Biglou
Posted 3/15/2011 6:08 PM (#56672 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: Re: Leanout


Posts: 4
now i am new to sidecar riding.... i have a 99 yamaha royal star venture 1300 with a champion escort sidecar attached....

what i need to know is... not that the bike walks all over the road cause it tracks perfect it seems to me... but it seems that the bike is always at a lean to the left, not much but you can see it even when it is parked
is this the way they are supposed to be set up or does mine need some sort of adjustment... when i ride alone i have the tilt all they way down and have some ballast in the sidecar not much but some.. and i have
experienced as you all would call flying the chair.. a few times seemingly when i am stopped and then have to make a right hand turn.. now in right hand curves all is fine... just need advise on the seems the bike is leaning to the left or if this is normal all is fine yalls imput is very much appreciated...........

also is there any sidecar associations in north carolina i live in concord, n.c. myself

thanks,
BigLou
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Hack'n
Posted 3/15/2011 6:53 PM (#56675 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: Re: Leanout



Posts: 4833
Location: Boise, Idaho
When it is parked you probably don't have the crown of the road in the visual. The leanout will make the bike appear vertical on a crowned road. Without it the bike will head toward the shoulder if you relax the steering.
Most sidecars with tilt control are set up with the tilt mechanism at the bottom position, sidecar frame level with the ground (from side to side) and anywhere from 1 to 3 degrees of bike leanout depending on manufacturer.
I've found that 1+ degrees leanout with bike and sidecar loaded normally works well with most single passenger combos.
If it's tracking well andd the car tire isn't showing signs of an odd wear pattern you're probably OK.
One of our clients who used armor-all on his Harley Ultra seat with a (Hannigan) recommended 3 degree leanout felt like he was sliding off the left side of the seat. I reset the leanout to 1+ degrees and all was well.

Lonnie
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Biglou
Posted 3/15/2011 7:03 PM (#56676 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: Re: Leanout


Posts: 4
thanks, hack

i knew it was tracking good down the road even when riding i can relax and actually let go of one hand no problems
i am having the kliktronic device installed this week it is in the shop now at A Wing And A Chair in Monroe, N.C.

now as to the second part of the question any of the sidecar association in north carolina anywhere close to concord, n.c.
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