`Aux. Battery?
Rockhound Rider
Posted 5/7/2007 7:24 AM (#25177)
Subject: `Aux. Battery?



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I'm planning to add a Auto battery to my rig. I have several questions; whether or not, must you remove the motorcycle battery, if you add a auto battery? If the motorcycle battery can be kept, will the charging system on an 81 goldwing 1100 I, be able to charge both batteries? Will it be necessary to put the Auto battery on an isolater, because of the AMP copacity of the different batteries. Its not that I want to use the auto battery to start the motor, although it would be good as a back up, it will be used more for auxillary items, like a laptop computor, Aux lamp for those unscheduled repair stops at night, and possibly to power aux. oxygen equiptment for my personal needs, etc.....

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Bob in Wis
Posted 5/7/2007 10:06 AM (#25179 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: RE: `Aux. Battery?



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Jim ,It's possible to hook both batteries in line, but I just removed my bike battery and installed a big auto battery in my right saddlebag.
lot easier,just extend the csbles to the auto battery. the big car battery is more than enough to run your accessories, AND start your bike fine.
the bike altenator will charge the auto battery just fine, if it is reasonably charged to begin with. the Alt will replace the amount used as it normally does. Idoesnt make any difference how big it is.
like in an auto, dont try and recharge an almost dead, or very low Battery with your alternator.
I hot wired in a Battery tender, to the battery cables, where the old battery was, to be used on occaision when the auto battery is low.
if the bike sits for weeks in your garage, just plug it in to keep it topped off.[no need for it yet on my /5]
you can also plug it in at a campground if needed, overnight, to top it off.
just one battery to worry about. nice!!
also, a dividend is If I ever have to remove the SC from the bike, the battery stays with the bike, in the saddlebag.



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SidecarMike
Posted 5/7/2007 10:55 AM (#25181 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: RE: `Aux. Battery?



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I'm in the process of wiring a second battery for a piece of medical equipment. I'll be keeping the original to make sure the bike will start in the morning. In the past I've done this with camping trailers and never had a problem with different sized batteries. I've never done it with batteries as different as a car battery and an MC one, though.
To do this, pick up an $8 starter solenoid for a 1960 to 1987 Ford pickup. Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket attach a 10 gauge or heavier wire from the second battery positive to one large stud and a wire from the main battery positive to the other large stud. Now attach a 16 gauge wire from the small terminal (Marked I) to any wire that is hot only when the key is on. When the ignition is off, you can drain the big battery without affecting the original, but when the key is on, both batteries will charge.

Now for the disclaimer. I have never done this on anything new enough to have computerized ignition circuits. The newest vehicle was a 1994 Suburban. Let some of our electronics minded members speak up before you take my advice seriously.

Here's a diagram I found that is much neater than one I would draw. The only difference here is that they are drawing a trigger from the alternator while we did it from the ignition. If you wish to buy a factory made isolator, this diagram came from http://www.emarineinc.com/products/alternators/iso1alt2bat.html


Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

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Rockhound Rider
Posted 5/7/2007 1:55 PM (#25185 - in reply to #25179)
Subject: RE: `Aux. Battery?



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Bob in Wis. What make and model of battery are you using, to put in your saddle bag? What are its reserve cranking AMPS? I have the Honda Line, hard saddle bags and most auto batteries I have seen, appear to be to wide to fit into the them. If I had to buy a narrow enough battery, that didn't offer adiquate reserve cranking AMPS, I don't think I would want to buy such a battery just so it fits.
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Bob in Wis
Posted 5/7/2007 3:25 PM (#25186 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: RE: `Aux. Battery?



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I bought the battery at our local Fleet Farm store. it is a 550 CCA battery.
compared to the 28 AH stock battery.
9" long and 5" wide, and 9" high..made for some small import car.
I have one in my /5 with R100RS engine for 2 years, and now the same kind of battery in my new 85 K100 bike.
I can run camp lights, air compressor, off it with no problems staring the bike later.
measure your bag opening and visit the local store, and see whats available. lot of odd sizes now for various imports.
the foam I inserted to keep the battery from moving around. also put a layer on the bottom, with a hard rubber pad along with it.
the small tupperware box fills in extra space, used for small articles...bungie cords in my case.

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Shadow1100T
Posted 5/11/2007 3:17 AM (#25272 - in reply to #25181)
Subject: RE: `Aux. Battery?



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Mike, could i get a copy for the Aux Battery hook up ?

tedandlila@peoplepc.com

Thanks Mike,

Ted
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claude #3563
Posted 5/11/2007 6:09 AM (#25273 - in reply to #25272)
Subject: RE: `Aux. Battery?



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We have run just a car battery with our own rigs for years. Thye last forever and cost less. Never saw any reason to try and compolicate things by retaining the motorcycle battery.
Car batteries cost less, last longer, can be used for ballast if placed in the right spot, can take a quick charge if necessary and have the capacity to run many accessories off of when camping. The motorcycle charging system will do fine with them unless they are drained down too far. Due to the concern with this it doesn't hurt to carry a charger of sometype when camping.
I prefer to mount the battery in it's own box, Have placed them between sidecar and bike, inside the sidecar and also behind the sidecar wheel (best weight distibution here). Have also wired in a conventional recepticle on some to allow camp lights to be plugged in. Any 110v light can be used if the bulb is replaced with a 12v unit.

Note that if th ebike battery is to be retained it and the car battery need to be rigged so they can will be chareged seperately if the bike's charging system is to be used. Trying to make them charge on th esame circuit is asking for trouble due to the difference in sizes.

To me car batteries are THE way to go with any sidecar rig. Keep it simple and have fun.


Edited by claude #3563 5/11/2007 6:13 AM
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Bob in Wis
Posted 5/11/2007 9:24 AM (#25278 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: RE: `Aux. Battery?



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Yup, like Claude says...ther is no reason to keep the original bike battery in the system. just extend the cables and install the car battery. plenty of startup power left even after all night use in a campground.
all you need extra is a battery tender to top off the car battery if it is low.
K.I.S.S...
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CCjon
Posted 1/22/2016 11:14 PM (#87613 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?



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Time to jump start this old thread...

On a KLR650 rig, mounted a lithium 420CCA battery on the sidecar eliminating the OEM biker battery. Now after installing a separate fuse block for the many auxiliary outlets, LED driving lights, charging port for laptop and camera, air horn, etc, am having a small voltage drain somewhere in the aux wiring. Then installed a 30A switch between the battery and the auxiliary fuse block so I can turn off all of those circuits when am off the bike. 

Since I still have the original bike battery, am thinking to reinstall it with a diode isolater between the two batteries. It would first charge the bike battery and when full, charge the sidecar battery. Will have the OEM battery for starting only and the sidecar battery for the auxiliary items. If the sidecar battery is run down, will still have the fully charged bike battery for starting.

Above they mentioned going to one car battery, but since I already have both batteries, the only additional expense is the isolater and some wiring. Where I am most concerned about needing this, there will be no outlets for plugging in a battery tender.

Any recommendations on which isolater to use? Or suggestions/comments?



Edited by CCjon 1/22/2016 11:18 PM
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michaelh
Posted 1/24/2016 12:47 AM (#87621 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?


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I'd stay away from diodes, and go to a VSR (voltage sensing relay, either solid state or a physical latching relay).

Fewer system losses due to heat, and you don't need to horse around with the regulator to account for the roughly 0.4vdc drop across the diode.

Either a chandlery or an RV shop will have them.
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Lloyd
Posted 1/24/2016 5:40 PM (#87636 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?


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My old diesel pickup has two batteries, hooked up in line without any isolators or switches between them, seems to work well, and when I put a charger on one of them it charges both.
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Al Olme
Posted 1/24/2016 6:37 PM (#87637 - in reply to #87636)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?


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The reason that the two batteries wired in parallel worked in your diesel truck was that they were at least approximately the same size and capacity. If you use a car battery and a bike battery they will both charge and discharge at different rates. When the bike isn't running [without an isolation circuit] the battery with the lower level of charge will draw from the battery with a higher charge. That sounds like a good thing but it isn't. In the long run, one battery will overcharge. From personal experience, I can say that wiring two dissimilar batteries together is not such a great idea. The charging circuit from an RV will do the trick but at the end of the day simple is best. I use a small automotive style battery in the sidecar trunk. It feeds a terminal block that I installed where the battery used to live. I used #6 multistrand cable from the battery in the trunk to the terminal block... that was overkill but I already had the cable. #10 multistrand would probably do the trick.

Keep it simple, one high capacity, cheap car battery really is the way to go.
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Hack'n
Posted 1/25/2016 12:38 PM (#87643 - in reply to #87637)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?



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Amen!
I also use #6 wire.
The auto battery is also good ballast.

Lonnie
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trikebldr
Posted 1/26/2016 12:06 AM (#87649 - in reply to #87643)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?



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Hack'n - 1/25/2016 11:38 AM

Amen!
I also use #6 wire.
The auto battery is also good ballast.

Lonnie


Definitely not picking on you, Lonnie, by quoting your post, but how well do all the metal parts in or near the trunk (hinges, struts, latches, bolts) of the sidecar stand up to the corrosive gasses that do come off the battery while charging? Some 'glass cars, like most of Motorvation's, have very few metal parts nearby. Maybe a marine battery box that is vented would work well. Even a very small muffin fan to ventilate would be nice and would not interfere since it would only run when the engine is running. I cringe to think of a battery confined inside a metal trunk like on Sputnics or Urals.
I, too, like the idea of the battery as part of the overall ballast.
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Al Olme
Posted 1/26/2016 11:22 AM (#87652 - in reply to #87649)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?


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trikebldr - 1/25/2016 11:06 PM

<> but how well do all the metal parts in or near the trunk (hinges, struts, latches, bolts) of the sidecar stand up to the corrosive gasses that do come off the battery while charging?<>

I only wish that my sidecar trunk was sealed well enough for that to be a problem. When actually on a charger, the sidecar trunk is open so it isn't an issue. When the battery is being charged by the bike under way I'm certain that there is enough air exchange to avoid the problem. At the very least, it has worked fine for the past 15 years with no evidence of corrosion.
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Hack'n
Posted 1/26/2016 1:00 PM (#87655 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?



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I've used vented battery boxes with inexpensive vented batteries. Not all batteries are vented.
I've never heard a complaint re: corrosion from anyone using a trunk mounted battery. Have you experienced this problem?

Lonnie
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trikebldr
Posted 1/28/2016 1:45 AM (#87675 - in reply to #87655)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?



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I saw some dulling of the chrome hinges (external, no less) on my Motorvation Spyder many years ago. That's evidence of some gassing getting to them. However, all of my hacks have been fiberglass and I always seal up the trunks. The Spyders, if sealed properly, are almost air-tight, with no metal exposed inside except the hinge bolts and latch. I simply kept the chromed hinges well waxed to stop any more dulling after re-chroming.

I base my inquiry on the fact that on most motorhomes of any age, there is plenty of corrosion all around the battery compartments of the coach batteries, and no matter what you do, short of forced air ventilation, there will always be at least a little bit of gassing accumulation. A lot of motorhomes seem to be owned by the set-it-and-forget-it crowd, so they get only barely required maintenance. Fortunately, most sidecar rigs do get lots of attention, so surfaces get washed or wiped frequently enough to stop much damage.

It's just that this discussion, plus the one about the Sputnik sidecars (all metal) on the for sale section, got me to thinking about all the steel-bodied cars out there and what can happen when using a lead-acid battery in the enclosed trunk. Even with ventilation, that gas still passes the metal and when there is contact of the hydrogen particles, there is immediate reaction. So that's why the chrome on my hinges became dull over time right at the hinge line where the gasses would leak past the gaps before I sealed them. It doesn't take much gassing to cause this effect, at least to the point of dulling some chrome, or paint.
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caddypat
Posted 1/28/2016 1:54 PM (#87681 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: RE: `Aux. Battery?


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my fix is to use agm or gel battries. i use them inside my sprinter van and in my sidecar. also used them in my semi truck.no gassing and longer life. pat
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sptfr43
Posted 1/28/2016 9:07 PM (#87690 - in reply to #87681)
Subject: RE: `Aux. Battery?


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What size are you using?
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gunslinger
Posted 5/15/2016 5:51 PM (#89147 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?


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I'm in the middle of the restoration of a Vetter Terraplane which will be hitched to a '81 Goldwing. I want to install the battery in the sidecar, eliminating the motorcycle battery. Am considering an Odyssey 925 series battery with #4AWG cables. All lights on the Terraplane (headlight, 8 marker lights, tail & brake light will be LED), with gradual replacement of motorcycle lamps with LEDs. Am I on the right track with the battery and cable size? This is a frame up restoration, so I want it right the first time. I'm looking for ideas, comments, questions and critizisms. Thanks in advance.
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RoanokeRider
Posted 5/17/2016 11:38 AM (#89166 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?


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For what it is worth, some Mercedes and some BMW's had the battery in the trunk. The battery had a fitting on the end that a piece of clear tubing goes to and then vent to the outside. I know that Interstate had such a battery the the model number started with MB. Should work in sidecar trunks as well as it did in car trunks.

Edited by RoanokeRider 5/17/2016 11:38 AM
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Al Olme
Posted 5/17/2016 2:18 PM (#89167 - in reply to #89147)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?


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#4AWG cable is serious overkill. #8 is more than adequate, really #10 would do, and a fraction of the cost, easier to route [because it is at least sort of flexible] and lighter. If you do go for big cable, I suggest you consider using something like https://www.grainger.com/product/ANDERSON-POWER-PRODUCTS-Power-Conne... These connectors are used to charge electric fork lifts and make a clean and easy to use connector from the sidecar power supply to the bike. They come in many wire sizes. I used a plexiglas plate under the seat to replace the battery as a place to connect all the bike power. The connectors on that plate are attached to the cable coming from the sidecar with this sort of connector. Over 10 years with that set up and no issues ever.
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gunslinger
Posted 5/17/2016 5:51 PM (#89168 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?


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Decided to go with #10 wire and the Anderson connector per your advice. Combined with the Odyssey 925, it should last forever. Thanks for the assistance.

Ray Paige
Bitterroot Valley, MT
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Al Olme
Posted 5/17/2016 7:15 PM (#89169 - in reply to #89168)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?


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Remember when I said "If you go with big cable..."? I don't think you'll find an Anderson style connector for #10 wire. To be sure, there are suitable connectors out there, just not like the Anderson product from Grainger. Anderson makes a smaller "Powerpole" range that is available from other sources. I'd go to McMaster Carr and check out what they have available or if you have a local Grainger, walk in and ask for help.

Also, #10 will doubtless do the job but I always try to use things that are a bit oversize. Check to see what the output of your alternator is, size the wire for that plus a safety margin. I believe you'll still go with #10 but since I don't know the output of your alternator, it's better to check.
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gunslinger
Posted 5/17/2016 8:44 PM (#89170 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?


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Al, you are right. I'll have to use Anderson Power Pole connectors. No local stores, so I'll have to order. The Wing is over in Idaho, so I'll have to wait until I get it home and run diagnostics on the alternator (probably still be #10 or at the most #8 wire). Anyway, I'm now headed in the right direction! Thanks again.

Ray Paige
Bitterroot Valley, MT
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trikebldr
Posted 5/17/2016 10:33 PM (#89171 - in reply to #25177)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?



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Guys, it's not just about charging capacity of the alternator and running accessories on a bike as far as wire sizing! The biggest amp draw is the starter (as much as five times what the alternator puts out!), and you had better provide enough for it, even at the short lengths of cable on our bikes. If you don't, you will create a serious voltage drop that can/will affect the ignition circuit which can/will make a difference in how easily the engine will fire while cranking. Once the voltage drops below a certain amount (usually around 9.5 volts), most ignition circuits will not fire the coils, or at the most will give a weak spark.
Without doing an actual amp-load test to determine the draw of your particular bike, I certainly would at least watch the voltage at the battery with a meter as you crank the engine.
Are you going to go with a smaller size just to save a couple of bucks? Not me! I want my bikes to have all the power they need with minimal voltage drop, especially during cold starts. I would use only fine-strand #8 or #6. I do agree that #4 might be a bit overkill, because that is what most cars use for the ground.

Edited by trikebldr 5/17/2016 10:38 PM
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trikebldr
Posted 5/17/2016 11:34 PM (#89172 - in reply to #89167)
Subject: Re: `Aux. Battery?



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Al, thanks for the heads up on the Anderson brand of connectors. I used to use them to connect my batteries in my boat, but never knew the brand name. Just got them at the local marine supply.
I did google the brand and found another great site to get all of Anderson's products, and they do offer a Powerpole series that goes down to #10. The prices are about 1/3 of Grainger's, too. Lots of body color choices as well.
https://powerwerx.com/anderson-sb-connectors-sb50-50amp
This site also has a good size selector calculator, but not many bike manuals give the amp draw of the starter, so it's a shot in the dark. However, they do say that Anderson connectors are good for many times their rated amperage in short bursts.
FWIW, most small auto engines draw about 250-350amps during cranking, with larger V8's drawing around 600-700 amps. I would estimate that a 1500cc engine might draw 180-200 amps during cranking, and according to Anderson, their #8 will handle 50 amps continuous, and their #6 will handle 120amps continuous. #8 would probably be OK for short bursts at around 150 amps, but #10 (good for 30amps) is pushing the limits of even short burst capacity.
My Kawasaki Voyager has two alternators that put out a combined amperage of 55 amps, and I wouldn't use anything less than the #6 cable/connectors, even though the #8 would likely be fine for running everything else except the starter. My original ground wire from the battery is a #6, so taking into account the extra length of the cables from the sidecar trunk, #6 would be the minimum size I would use. If a bike has 1000cc or less, #8 might be fine.
BTW, Al, I do like your idea of setting up a connection terminal using the plexiglass insulator. It gives me ideas! Thanks!
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