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Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack
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Toyman
Posted 2/4/2015 9:45 PM (#82625)
Subject: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack



Member

Posts: 30
25
Location: Wichita, Ks.
I have a 06 Ultra Classic HD with a basically stock 88 cu. in. engine. I have been disappointed that this bike does not have the kahunas to pull my Formula II sidecar at highway speeds very well. So I'm searching out advice on building the engine up for more power or simply installing it on another bike with more snort. I've been told a cam and exhaust change would make all the difference in the world. It currently has a good air filter, Vance n Hines True duals exhaust and power pack tuner. I think it will take more than this to allow it to run 65-75 mph in high gear even with a tailwind.

So here I am exploring my options;

I'd like to keep it on the Harley since I have the mounts and have painted it to match the bike. Hence my first question is what do I have to do to it to go 70mph.

I have a 96 Kawasaki Vulcan 1500 that could be a candidate but I don't think this 4 speed bike is a good choice.

I have a friend selling a 2000 BMW R1200C. I've read these bikes have 85 pounds of torque but weak on HP. Might be a good choice?

Get a Triumph Rocket or similar performance bike? I refuse to buy a Goldwing even though it's most likely the best option.

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ChoketheFirst
Posted 2/4/2015 10:30 PM (#82627 - in reply to #82625)
Subject: RE: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack



Member

Posts: 21
0
Location: Kailua Kona, Hawaii



Aloha Toyman,

I have a 2003 Road King with a Liberty sidecar. I shipped it to the mainland for a 6000 mile trip around the western U.S. I do not know the weight difference between the Friendship and the Liberty. It may be too slight to matter?

I had no trouble keeping up with traffic, with a couple of caveats. Several states have posted speed limits in excess of 70 mph. Traffic often would be running 80-85. I had my chair loaded with camping equipment and luggage. The saddlebags were also full and I have a rear trunk similar in size to the Ultra. I was carrying a lot of "stuff".

 My bike has these modifications:

     95" kit

     Doherty hi-flow air cleaner with stock exhaust

     Stage I ecm flash

     3:37 primary gearing

 this last bit, the primary gearing, causes the engine to run about 3-400 rpm higher than the stock 3:15 gearing.

 

The caveats are these:

    uphill ? .......... definitely slowing down

    high elevation (like 10,000 ft) ? ....... am I backing up?

 

 On level ground/gentle grades the bike could keep up with traffic. I did not particularly enjoy driving this thing at 85mph in heavy traffic, especially through Reno on I80, parts of Idaho, and the Los Angeles/San Diego area but sometimes it was necessary.

 The cheapest and easiest thing to try would be the gearing change. I kind of wish I had done the 103" kit (stroker crank) but I did not have a sidecar in mind when I had the engine work done.

 I would also advise modifying your HD only if you really love the bike. Otherwise, buy a torque monster of some sort.

 

 as usual .... this is my opinion which is worth what you paid for it....

 Choke

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Toyman
Posted 2/5/2015 8:43 AM (#82632 - in reply to #82625)
Subject: Re: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack



Member

Posts: 30
25
Location: Wichita, Ks.
Thanks Choke for your opinion.

I do have a sentimental attachment to this bike as well as the hack which is the main reason I've put them together.

I purchased the HD with inherited funds from my oldest brother (Daniel) passing. He was very influential in me becoming the "Toyman" that I am today. I spent many hours with him on various cycles that he continually bought & sold. He put me on a 58 Cushman Eagle when I was 12 & I was forever hooked on cycles. I've not been without at least one or more since.

The Formula II was purchased from my dear uncle (also named) Daniel. He had this on a 1500 Goldwing until someone ran a stoplight and totaled the bike and almost him. The sidecar survived but he was unable to ride again with his injuries. I employed my best friend to help restore the sidecar and install it on my H.D. My uncle Dan & his son Glen both toured the U.S.A. with hacks so they could carry more supplies safely. Daniel once won the USCA trophy for driving the furthest to a national rally. He drove a 47' Indian Chief with I think was a HD sidecar from Chicago, Ill. to Sainte Fe, N. Mex.

With all this in mind I really should not be looking to separate these two but I have to be reasonable. If it is to costly to get the performance I desire from the HD I would rather put it on a bike that can pull it well. Lastly I am the Toyman and am always looking for an excuse to purchase another big boy toy.

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SwampFox
Posted 2/5/2015 8:56 AM (#82633 - in reply to #82627)
Subject: RE: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack



Expert

Posts: 1662
10005001002525
Location: Summer Grove, LA USA
ChoketheFirst - 2/4/2015 10:30 PM

...The cheapest and easiest thing to try would be the gearing change....

I agree.  My small 883R Sporster rig struggled until we lowered the gearing by a mere 4%.  Made 1st & 5th gears usable.  Except Jena's Burgman with CVT that compensates for load, all of our rigs have been geared down either by primary (best for Big Twin), pulley/sprocket or tire size.  It's surprising how much more drivable a rig can be with a 4% - 8% gearing reduction.  By the way, fuel economy actually improved when we geared down the Sportster rig.

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roadglider
Posted 2/5/2015 8:58 AM (#82634 - in reply to #82625)
Subject: Re: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack


Member

Posts: 35
25
Location: SOUTHEASTERN MA
It might be best to look for a new combination. I found some beautiful complete rigs when I was looking for just a car for my Road King. You can do well price-wise when you sell a complete rig, especially painted to match. FWIW my 08 road king with a TLE will cruise all day at 80 MPH with a stock motor.
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IndSlim
Posted 2/5/2015 1:20 PM (#82638 - in reply to #82625)
Subject: Re: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack


Regular

Posts: 98
252525
Location: SW Ohio
Reduced gearing is good advice. You should keep in mind however that HD must manufacture their engines to be EPA compliant. That means that they respond well to a well balanced mod of cams, exhaust, and intake. Good luck in whatever choice you make.
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Toyman
Posted 2/5/2015 8:17 PM (#82640 - in reply to #82625)
Subject: Re: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack



Member

Posts: 30
25
Location: Wichita, Ks.
I like the idea of lower gearing of the primary. I once had a 66 HD Servi-Car that had an additional tooth or two on the primary sprocket. This allowed the little trike to run out much faster than you really wanted to drive it at full throttle. Mostly because of it's extremely responsive steering designed for a much slower city driving. I'd like to think this mod. along with a cam and better exhaust for torque should allow the little 88 cu. inch to pull this large hack at highway speeds. She only has 20k miles on her so I'd rather not have to shell out the bucks for a big bore kit until it's ready for a rebuild.
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jandrews@papadocs.co
Posted 2/5/2015 10:00 PM (#82642 - in reply to #82640)
Subject: Re: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack


Member

Posts: 25
25
I have 3 touring Harleys with Harley sidecars now. I have run carburetor evos and twin cam fuel injected all the way up to the current 103. We do a lot of long distance touring. What I found is run in a lower gear to keep the RPMs up. I also run the speed limit. It has worked well for me. I prefer to keep the bikes as close to stock as possible. The newest a 2014 I got rid of the catalytic converter which required a race tuner being added.

good luck

john
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timo482
Posted 2/7/2015 12:06 AM (#82648 - in reply to #82642)
Subject: Re: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack


Elite Veteran

Posts: 628
50010025
Location: Belle Plaine MN
the trikes have deeper gearing - i think the rear is 30 70 id go gearing

the pre 84 sidecar bikes had deeper gearing - and sometimes reverse.....

my current 07 bike with 04 car will run 80 comfortably in 5th - 6th is *almost* useless with stock gearing - but with my insane work schedule i don't get to ride enough to go through the trouble to change the gearing.

every summer i say "this winter"

I'm going to have to get the parts in the summer - then ill actually do the work. my wife never lets me spend any money in the winter when I'm home... *sigh*

to
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Hoyt
Posted 2/7/2015 10:19 AM (#82650 - in reply to #82625)
Subject: Re: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack


Member

Posts: 15
0
Location: Florence SC
I recently changed my hack from my 2002 ultra to my 2011 FLHTP with the 103 motor and six speed. Well worth the change over all the way around. No problem running at +75 and still has more to go if I need it.
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Gngyoung
Posted 2/8/2015 10:12 AM (#82665 - in reply to #82625)
Subject: Re: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack


Member

Posts: 5
0
Last year I made power improvements before my 2007 ultra classic became a sidecar rig. With the hack in, the bike still had lots of power. I went with thundermax efi, se255 low end torque cams, 103 kit, CNC ported stage 2 heads from jprecision in Quebec, heavy duty valve springs, se 50mm throttle body with larger injectors, vance and hines true duals with rinehart 4 inch pipes and finally a heavy duty SE race clutch and se fourth gen compensator. The result before the hack was amazing and wheely pulling power. The result after adding the hd sidecar was still a fast bike. And it had absolutely no problem passing trucks and cars on the highway.

Steering was heavy so I went with a champion sidecar ez steer. That install is near complete now. I noted engine oil temps rose around 2200-230 degrees so I am adding a jagg 10 row oil cooler. I also found take offs from a hill with a rear seat passenger and third passenger in the hack put a high load on the engine so this weekend I'm adding a 30t front transmission pulley ( down from 32t). I also noted the front forks were tending to dive heavily on right hand turns so I've added progressive suspension hd fork springs. I will know exactly how well this works in the spring. What I realize so far is that riding with a sidecar is a lot of fun. I'm committed to the project as I am a navy veteran and am in line for a service dog so a trike isn't an option for me. I've ridden Harley's almost 32 years now so I'm not leaving harley. What I will say is, depending on how well you want the bike to work, be prepared to shell out a few bucks to get to a properly configured and purpose converted sidecar rig. Can the stock engine handle the load? Yes it can but be prepared to ride slower and with high steering effort. I do my own work and so far I've invested a lot of cash. It should be a lot more fun to drive this coming year.

Edited by Gngyoung 2/8/2015 10:07 AM
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Pavin
Posted 2/12/2015 8:49 PM (#82788 - in reply to #82625)
Subject: RE: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack


Member

Posts: 17
0
My wife's bike is a 2001 Road Queen with a Motorvation hack , we had a 103 built for her bike with 203 cams SE crank hybrid tennsioners HO cam plate with lots more. The bike dynoed at 89 Hp and 113 torque it pulls the hack great and will out pull my 2010 glide up hills all day long. Unfortunately we are looking to sell it due to health reasons..
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Toyman
Posted 2/12/2015 10:18 PM (#82795 - in reply to #82788)
Subject: RE: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack



Member

Posts: 30
25
Location: Wichita, Ks.
Pavin - 2/12/2015 7:49 PM

My wife's bike is a 2001 Road Queen with a Motorvation hack , we had a 103 built for her bike with 203 cams SE crank hybrid tennsioners HO cam plate with lots more. The bike dynoed at 89 Hp and 113 torque it pulls the hack great and will out pull my 2010 glide up hills all day long. Unfortunately we are looking to sell it due to health reasons..


Pavin, Sorry to hear health issues are the cause of your sale. This is one of the reasons I purchased a sidecar as I know all to well I will not be able to comfortably handle the weight of my Ultra H.D. someday. I'm already considering the purchase of another rig for my girlfriend as she has a desire for her own. The other reason is obvious because of my handle. Which brings me to my next question you can answer via PM or reply; what do you want for the Road Queen & hack and second question; where are you located?
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Lsquid
Posted 2/13/2015 8:18 PM (#82809 - in reply to #82625)
Subject: RE: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack


Regular

Posts: 52
2525
Location: Orlando FL
I did the primary gear change to make the bike more flexible. I have a n '11 Road GLide Ultra. I have changed the gear and had to change the belt. to change the belt on a bagger gets expensive so think about this before you do it. I was told that a new belt would not not be required but that was not so. I think for the money I could have done cams and head work and upped the HP/Torque rather than a gearing change. It does ride better and pulls 6th gear quite easily. I also have a car tire on the bike and they work well together. I also changed the triple tree to a tri-glide tree. Best move you can make for the money. You do not need the steering damper from Harley or even an aftermarket damper. I have electric lean on the car (CSC) and it has no pull. I get a bit of head shake at low speeds so I compensate by riding faster. I am still going to do the headwork/cams but thats only so I can go faster. If anyone is interested, check out Star Racing in Americus GA. they have a great deal on making a 103 into something extremely exciting. I will be in DC for Rolling Thunder this Memorial Weekend. Riding up from Orlando Fl with some friends. Anyone else going to be there?
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Gngyoung
Posted 2/19/2015 10:15 PM (#82936 - in reply to #82625)
Subject: Re: Need more umph from my HD to pull the hack


Member

Posts: 5
0
I went to 30 tooth transmission pulley and also found the belt too long on my 2007 ultra. My fix is to change the rear pulley from a 66 to a 68 tooth returning the belt range to where it was originally. Part number 40518-07 for the 66t Ids pulley.
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