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Looking into getting my first sidecar
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IamDan
Posted 6/22/2016 4:30 PM (#89583)
Subject: Looking into getting my first sidecar


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Posts: 7
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Location: Indianapolis
I could use some advice and guidance.

I have been cruising around here and adv and triumphrat looking for info on sidecar setups.

My 5 year old thinks sidecars are the coolest thing since sliced bread, and are the only bikes he thinks are "OK" to be in a color other than black or chrome, so I have started looking around at getting a hack setup so I an take him out to the shows and on rides with me.

My game plan is to find a Triumph Bonneville that is a few years old to use as a tug. That should give me some power and reliability, and will look good in the garage next to my vintage Triumph.

As far as the chair itself though, I m at a bit of a loss.

There is a Ural / Royal Enfield/cozy dealer in town, and they said they can get me a Ural or cozy car and do the install or me.

There is also a sidecar guy at the local Triumph dealer and they said they can do an install, but don't have any connections with any car builders, so I have to supply that.

There aren't any car builders that are nearby (Hannigan is the closest at 3 hours away). So I think my best bet is to either do the mount and setup myself or rely on the triumph dealer.


I have heard that the cozy cars arent really meant for a bike that large, and to be honest I Ind the Ural chairs to be a bit ugly.

What should I be looking at size wise to mount to a newer Bonnie? And what cars would actually fit it style wise?

Is my best bet to order a new car from a builder or keep my eyes peeled on eBay and then just order a new mount and frame?

I used to build and setup suspensions and chassis for hotrods a d race cars, but I haven't been able to wrap my brain around how to go about setting up a sidecar.

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CCjon
Posted 6/22/2016 11:28 PM (#89587 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 329
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Location: NWHouston
Dan, Welcome to the forum. The common mistake many newcomers make is to underestimate the costing of building their own rig. If $$$ are factors, every so often there are Triumph rigs already set up and tweaked that come up for sale. That will be a less expensive intro into sidecars than building your own. When you find a rig you are interested in, ask here if there is anyone from the USCA is near its location that can check it out for you. I know when I first started, I didn't know what I didn't know. Didn't know what to look for, what to avoid or what was dangerous. The members here want you and your family to be safe, get off on the right rig and enjoy the sport we love. Welcome and good luck finding your new rig. CCjon

Edited by CCjon 6/22/2016 11:32 PM
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trikebldr
Posted 6/23/2016 12:04 AM (#89588 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar



Veteran

Posts: 104
100
Location: Independence, MO.
Its good to hear that you have experience with hot rods and race cars! Setting up a sidecar isn't rocket science, but does take a full understanding of the principles at work and a lot of patience from the installer. It might even take several adjustments until it feels just right and doesn't scrub your tires away in a mile!
I sure wish you lived closer to Kansas City, I could help you connect the car to a bike and get it aligned just right. I, too, have a lot of hot rod and sprint car building experience and after learning all the terminology and principles of the sidecar geometry, plus a lengthy session with one of the builders of old, I quickly learned the ins and outs of setting up a car. Now I even fabricate my own mounts and accessories. You can, too, I'm sure! Learn all you can about lean-out, toe-in, car axle lead, rake and trail.
Are you just dead set on a modern Bonneville? There are a lot of complete rigs out there that would be a wonderful first rig. In just the last month I have seen about six complete rigs in the classifieds right here that looked really great. Most sidecarists tend to baby their whole rig. You should be able to find a descent complete rig within six months if you don't limit yourself. IMO, an 850 Triumph will be a bit short on power for longer distance cruising on the highways. I would look for a 1200 Gold Wing, or bigger as a tug. There was recently a 1200 Gold Wing with a Vetter Terraplane (he called it a Verraplane!) that looked really nice, especially for the price! It even had the full compliment of Vetter fairing, trunk and saddlebags. My personal rig is a Vetter Terraplane being pulled by a Kawasaki Voyager 1300 sixer. It's my third sixer and second sidecar. GREAT tug if you don't mind tinkering with it to bring it up to like new running condition! Just keep watching the classifieds on this site! Don't rush into anything! There will always be another great rig show up before too long!
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IamDan
Posted 6/23/2016 8:57 AM (#89589 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar


Member

Posts: 7
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Location: Indianapolis
Thanks for the replies, I'm not married to the idea of the Tre Triumph, but I do have a bit of a twinge of brand loyalty. And the modern classics definitely have the right "look", I'm. A rockabilly hotrod guy, and the retro styling definitely appeals to me and fits well with my lifestyle. But after working on high end racecars and doing product dev for advanced hybrid systems, I do like to have some modern technology with my vintage look. I mean the TV in my living room is a 1280lcd shoved inside of a 51 Admiral case.


While I could probably do the build and setup myself, I would prefer to have someone else do it this time, and after a year or so of studying their work I might be comfortable building a rig of my own. That's why I am looking at the two dealerships to most likely do the work. Unless someone can point me to a sidecar builder in or near Central Indiana.


I'm not too worried about interstates, since I avoid them like the plague when I'm on my bike or in my car, so I have no intention of getting on the freeway in a hack. I tend to prefer state highway and county roads.
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OldSchool_IsCool
Posted 6/23/2016 9:37 AM (#89590 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 410
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Location: Michigan - Kalamazoo
Welcome to the Slightly Off-Centered World of Sidecars Dan!

I can second the notion of an OldWing as a tug. Pulls like a freight train and easy to work on as they have minimal plastic to dig thru. I have an 1100 with a double-wide car and it handles the job just fine. My car was built in Auburn, IN actually! Do approach the sport cautiously. When I say Slightly Off-Centered, that's as much a warning as a welcome. The center of gravity of a rig is well to the left, making turns at speed, even slow speeds, a challenge.
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jaydmc
Posted 6/23/2016 10:12 AM (#89591 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar


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We have done a lot of sidecars on the Bonneville and can send you out a sidecar with the mounts to do the work your self. The least expensive is the Russian Sputnik sidecars we offer $2995, the most popular is our M72B, $3995, our M72D, Classic and several other of our sidecars would also work well. Most important the mounts are designed for the Bonneville not a bunch of "universal" type frame clamps that we have you figure out how to use. I have attached the mounting instructions so you can see if this is some thing you would want to do on your own or have done.
In our photo gallery section there are many photo's of Bonneville's http://www.dmcsidecars.com/gallery/triumph/
Jay G
DMC sidecars
866-638-1793
www.dmcsidecars.com



(DSCN9678.JPG)



(DSCN9691.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Bonneville T100 Mounts.docx (2082KB - 7 downloads)
Attachments BASIC SIDECAR INSTRUCTIONS.doc (388KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments DSCN9678.JPG (1782KB - 1 downloads)
Attachments DSCN9691.JPG (1484KB - 0 downloads)
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trikebldr
Posted 6/23/2016 3:09 PM (#89596 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar



Veteran

Posts: 104
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Location: Independence, MO.
Dan, I recently came across a facebook page called WildSidecar. I have spent MANY hours browsing all the pics they post and I am amazed at the variety and ingenuity of all the custom builders out there. Most (60%) seem to be in Europe, but a lot are right here in the U.S. I think you might enjoy browsing a lot of the pics as they show a lot of hacks designed from the 50's-60's. Yes, lots of Tr's on there, too!
Also, I would like to say that Jay is right. They do make excellent mounts for almost any car to almost any bike, not using universal mounts.
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Alan_Hepburn
Posted 6/23/2016 4:59 PM (#89599 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar


Member

Posts: 7
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Location: San Jose, Ca, USA
We've been hack riders for just over 5 years now - bought a gently used Ural Tourist back in 2011 - it was a 2006 mode lwith only 4210 km on the clock! Drove it until last week - we wanted something with more power so we started looking for used rigs - ended jup finding a 1994 Honda GL1500SE with a California Sidecar attached, with 65K miles on the clock - for $8K! Drove from our home in San Jose, Ca to Cottage Grove, Or to look at it, bought it, and rode it home - nothing like a road trip on a new-to-you bike! There are deals out there if you look for them - this one was on craigslist, but we also looked on ebay, and on the USCA website.

We put our Ural on craigslist and it sold within a week...
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IamDan
Posted 6/25/2016 8:01 AM (#89610 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar


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Posts: 7
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Location: Indianapolis
What are the things you guys had wished you knew before getting your first sidecar rig?
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trikebldr
Posted 6/25/2016 11:44 AM (#89611 - in reply to #89610)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar



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Posts: 104
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Location: Independence, MO.
IamDan - 6/25/2016 7:01 AM

What are the things you guys had wished you knew before getting your first sidecar rig?


Jaydmc, with all of his experience, knowledge and talent!
Seriously, to me, the overal quality and strength of a car, plus the rigidity of the mounts, was an unknown to me, and my first rig actually bowed the mounting tubes, made by a very reputable maker. My bike was exceptionally heavy, though. I learned that the stronger the better. Same for the sidecar! Above all, don't let price influence you. Cheap usually means poor quality!
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Al Olme
Posted 6/25/2016 12:03 PM (#89612 - in reply to #89610)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar


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Posts: 1736
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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Things I wish i had known...

1. Most motorcycle dealers known little to nothing about sidecars although they are usually more than willing to speak about sidecars at length, mostly in the negative. Ask them how many sidecars they have installed and when they installed the most recent one. Also ask how many of their clients were happy with their rigs. If they installed "lots, back in the day" or "It's been a while since we did one" or [and this is the big one] "Most folks hated the things and had us take them off", look for another dealer.

2. There is no such thing as a universal mounting kit. The corollary to that is, there's no need to weld things to your frame unless you're building a bespoke racing rig.

3. If anyone speaks to you about alignment in absolute terms, like, "you need 3/4 of an inch of toe-in" or "You must have exactly the diameter of the rear wheel in sidecar lead", RUN! Sidecars are not an absolute thing, they are a compromise in most aspects. Getting suggestions about places to start with alignment is a good idea but you will have to do your own testing on your own rig with your own roads to be certain. Two seemingly identical rigs may need different alignments.

4. The whole concept of a "quickly detachable sidecar" that allows you to return to solo riding just means that you won't have the best sidecar experience. All the things you do to a bike to make it an ideal tug make it a crappy and potentially dangerous solo bike.

5. Most folks who have had a bad sidecar experience had it on a poorly setup rig.

6. Driving a sidecar rig IS NOT easier than riding a solo bike. It takes more upper body strength and more attention while on the road.

Of course, all that is just my opinion, you'll hear others.

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jwshort
Posted 6/25/2016 6:41 PM (#89613 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar


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Posts: 818
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Location: Rapid City, SD
Well Dan - you have met a good cross section of the USCA members. I have little to add. You have received some pretty solid advice from some experienced riders. But I will add that I was at a Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Club show last weekend. I met a young man who had a newer Triumph with a Cozy. It stood out in the crowd with matching red paint on both bike and car. I didn't have time to ask how it handled but it looked like it was a solid match-up and not likely to flex or wobble. The next time I see the guy I will ask those questions. I did get his name and gave him a USCA brochure. (I gave away several brochures that day. After all that is more or less why I was at the show.)
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trikebldr
Posted 6/26/2016 2:51 AM (#89614 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar



Veteran

Posts: 104
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Location: Independence, MO.
I agree with what Al said 100%, especially #3, #4 and #6. To #6 I would add, never, and I mean NEVER, allow anybody else to "...just try..." your rig once you get it! Highly experienced solo riders are the worst since they are so entrenched in handling a solo bike that it's harder for them to overcome those natural tendencies to steer a sidecar rig completely different! I've had two of my rigs damaged seriously by friends who "just wanted to try it". Thousands of dollars later and wiser now, I would even be hesitant to allow an experienced hack pilot to drive mine. Maybe Jay, Lonnie, Will or Al.
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Al Olme
Posted 6/26/2016 10:57 AM (#89615 - in reply to #89614)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar


Expert

Posts: 1736
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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Bruce has an excellent point. Solo bike riders really don't understand sidecars without experience. My wrench here in Minneapolis is a BMW factory trained mechanic and did some development riding for BMW, including work on the first ABS system for bikes. He understood sidecars technically and he and his assistant mounted my first rig [something I wouldn't go for now]. After he had done a couple of others, he did one for himself and when it was done I met him and another customer for a Saturday ride. Less than a half mile from the start, in a right hand sweeper, this HIGHLY QUALIFIED AND VASTLY EXPERIENCED motorcyclist lifted the sidecar and plunged straight on into a Chevy Nova. No body was hurt but the Chevy was totaled.

That said, where I differ from Bruce is that I'll let almost anybody try driving one of my rigs. One of the big issues that comes up before you make the decision to take the plunge into sidecars is, "Will I like it?'. The ONLY way to find out is to drive a sidecar rig, even if just for a few minutes. Now, I don't just let folks have the key and take off, I take them to a big open parking lot and give them a little idea about what's about to happen and then let them do a half hours of putting around the lot. That's usually all it takes. I always suggest that they take a class although it's getting harder and harder to find a class to take. But, even if you have to travel a long way to find a class, preferably one that provides rigs to drive, it's a small investment compared to buying a rig and then finding out that it just isn't your thing.

Very few dealers around the country have a rig sitting ready as a demonstrator. If we want our sport to grow, we need to let folks have the experience of driving a rig. I know that Bruce has had a bad experience and is justifiably gun shy. At the end of the day, a sidecar rig is just a thing and can be fixed or replaced. Has anyone ever damaged one of my rigs on a first ride? Sure, they have, and they paid to have it fixed. Folks are usually clear on that before they get the key.

Good luck.
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trikebldr
Posted 6/26/2016 3:37 PM (#89616 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar



Veteran

Posts: 104
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Location: Independence, MO.
At the Griffith Park rally in 1986, two of my buddies and I were just bs'ing and we came up with the concept of a single, left-mounted, castered training wheel for safely letting somebody practice right-handers and learning just where a rig's lift point is. It's a single, small wheel mounted on a caster that is attached to a bike's frame with three struts. The wheel rides about 2"-3" above the pavement unless in a right turn the sidecar lifts, then the training wheel prevents the bike from going all the way over. We built three of them for our own bikes to practice lifting the car safely so we would know instinctively the lift point in a right turn.
I have basically trained several other newbies using that trainer in (as Al pointed out!) a very large parking lot. Most already were driving their own rigs, but were afraid to cross that line voluntarily to lift the car.
You're a brave, generous man, Al ! My two friends never bothered to pay for my repairs.
Many sidecar pilots also have a solo bike to be able to enjoy the ease and relative freedom of cutting fast corners that can't be done on a rig. The extra effort it takes to handle a sidecar rig is also not everybody's cup of gasoline, either. Even with a well set up front end, they do take a bit more effort than any solo bike.
Something else you might want to do to possibly save big bucks in the long run is to visit several of the larger, better sidecar dealers and/or installers to hopefully take a test ride on a WELL SET UP MACHINE to feel just what is possible. As they say, you never know sweet until you taste a lemon. A poorly set up rig might make you question if you want a sidecar in the first place, but one that handles well might make you order one immediately. Someday I want to make an extended trip all across the country to visit Lonnie and Jay, at the least, to see what well made rigs feel like. I might hate my own rig after feeling what theirs are like! My first two rigs were a '76 Gold Wing with a stock front end, and a '83 Kawasaki Voyager with a stock front end. I was in my 30's and could easily handle that. Now I'm in my late 60's and the steering effort on my current '84 Voyager seems like trying to turn a freight train that's running on straight tracks, so I am modifying it to reduce trail for easier steering. To younger guys, the added effort might not be an issue, but it will be later. I also never minded that extra effort even on longer trips because my rigs always tracked straight on the highways.
I would encourage the purchase of a good used rig at first to get your feet wet so it should be relatively well set up. A nicer one can be had later, after you figure out exactly what you want/need in a rig. It's a lifetime journey of improvements that never ends!
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Al Olme
Posted 6/26/2016 4:32 PM (#89617 - in reply to #89616)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar


Expert

Posts: 1736
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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Bruce,

It's just two easy days of riding [about 13 hours total] from Independence to Hotchkiss. There will be lots of both good an bad rigs there AND I'd buy you a cold soda pop. So many old and new friends to see and talk with. I'm looking forward to spending some time with Robert "Snowbum" Fleischer. He's one of the best tech sources in the BMW moto sphere and he knows sidecars. In particular, I'm going to hit him for some help recalibrating my speedo. He'll probably refer me to his tech pages but I'll ask anyway.

And, you can drive my freshly finished BMW K1100LT/EML GT2. It's a full on EML conversion done over the winter with a new kit from EML. It may be the best rig I've had yet. It looks like Hotchkiss is going to be one heck of a rally!
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trikebldr
Posted 6/26/2016 9:39 PM (#89618 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar



Veteran

Posts: 104
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Location: Independence, MO.
I had to miss the AVA rally last week due to medical restrictions for now. Otherwise, you might have me hooked! Next year I plan to do every rally I can schedule. Now, if there was one in the KC area, I'm there! My doc says I can go anywhere withing 20 minutes of the VA center he works at. Hey, maybe I could drag him along as my monkey! Besides, my leading-leg adapters aren't finished yet.
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Al Olme
Posted 6/27/2016 12:07 AM (#89619 - in reply to #89618)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar


Expert

Posts: 1736
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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
It's not 20 minutes away but later this year there's a nice local sidecar rally in Council Grove, KS. I'm going to try to make it but it's a little way off and we have time to plan.
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playinatwork
Posted 6/27/2016 11:31 AM (#89621 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar


Member

Posts: 7
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Location: Jacksonville Fl.
Thanks for asking the questions Iamdan. I too am looking at getting my first sidecar. Thanks to all the posters advice. I'm reading all I can and learning as much as possible before I do something stupid. Hopefully getting a sidecar doesn't make the top 100 of stupid things I've done. But it's a long list so I should be safe here.
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Kilometers
Posted 6/28/2016 12:28 PM (#89629 - in reply to #89610)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar


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Posts: 64
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Location: Huntsville
IamDan - 6/25/2016 7:01 AM

What are the things you guys had wished you knew before getting your first sidecar rig?


1. How absolutely I would fall in love with Sidecars. I have 4 bikes from standards to long distance tourers. One of the four, a 2014 Ural Patrol, is my hands down favorite. I sold my first Ural in 2011 and couldn't wait to get another.

2. How indifferent my SO is to Sidecars. Kids love them, coworkers love them, but both of my SOs (one at a time thank you) really could care less. Thus the reason for the big touring bike which sits largely ignored unless SWMBO is riding with me. If you want to own a sidecar, make sure it is because it is something you want. It bothered me with my first Ural that the sidecar was empty most of the time. Now the sidecar is still empty most of the time but i no longer care.
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Alan_Hepburn
Posted 6/28/2016 2:14 PM (#89630 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar


Member

Posts: 7
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Location: San Jose, Ca, USA
On the other hand, my wife absolutely LOVES our sidecar! With a replacement knee, and backproblems, she could nolonger climb onto the back of a bike, and she was deathly afraid of tipping the bike over if she could get on - getting a sidecar meant that she could still enjoy riding with our friends, and she's in complete comfort!
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MrMike
Posted 6/28/2016 10:25 PM (#89631 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: RE: Looking into getting my first sidecar



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Posts: 205
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Location: Richton, MS
Some great advice here. Wish I had read all this before getting my first rig. Basically put my first two together myself. The Royal Enfield with Kozi Rocket was not too difficult. The car was designed for the bike I believe. The big problem was getting it balanced. The second was and still is a headache. Yamaha V-Star 950 with Velorex 562 (heavily modified). She runs like the wind but after almost 7,000 miles I'm still having issues. The latest I got a couple of weeks ago. Already set up. An older Honda VT 1100 T with Dauntless car. Heavy duty, solid and done right. Found it on cycletrader.com at a fair price. Had a friend broker the deal for me long distance. When my girl got out of school we rode the bus north and rode the rig home. That was 1,072 miles and no problems. Have had the rig in my possession for about three weeks and have put over 2,500 miles on it.

Guess the point is: getting a used rig already set up for your first one is a good idea, I believe. If you look around, you can find some really nice setups and very fair prices. Seems some people get them and realize it is not what they expected. My Honda is a 1999 and had 7,400 miles on it. Sat in the man's garage for two plus years before he sold it. If I had started with something like this I would have saved a lot of money and time and headaches. You could then sell it and move up. My problem is I don't want to let go of either of the other two. They are all fun in their own way. Jump in and enjoy.

Mike in MS
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DirtyDR
Posted 6/29/2016 10:54 AM (#89638 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar



Veteran

Posts: 254
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Location: Edwards, CO
Keep an eye on the Hacks forum over on ADVRider as there are a lot of rigs listed in the FS, Fleabay, & Craigslist thread.

There is a nice 78 Honda Automatic rig for $4,000.00 https://binghamton.craigslist.org/mcy/5635685880.html

An 85 V65 Sabre rig for $2,500 http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/mcy/5649754786.html
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playinatwork
Posted 6/29/2016 11:00 AM (#89639 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar


Member

Posts: 7
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Location: Jacksonville Fl.
I really like the looks of that V65 rig. What car is that? Is there anyone on the forum close that might be able to put eyes on it for me?
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DirtyDR
Posted 6/29/2016 11:03 AM (#89640 - in reply to #89583)
Subject: Re: Looking into getting my first sidecar



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Posts: 254
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Location: Edwards, CO
Looks like CSC Friendship I to me. Can't help with a look see but if it were closer I would be real tempted, that Sabre would be a wicked tug.

I would really like to see what is under the rest of those covers.

Edited by DirtyDR 6/29/2016 11:05 AM
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