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learning curve
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stancotreau
Posted 6/30/2016 9:19 PM (#89662)
Subject: learning curve



Regular

Posts: 51
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Location: Billerica MA
I've got about 1,000 miles under my belt on my Bonneville /velorex setup. I have had something happen three times that I do not understand.

I will be halfway through a left hand turn when all of a sudden the rig goes straight ... rather than staying in the curve. If I roll of the throttle it comes back under control.

Any ideas as to what is happening?

Stan
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Kilometers
Posted 6/30/2016 9:59 PM (#89664 - in reply to #89662)
Subject: Re: learning curve


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Posts: 64
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Location: Huntsville
Speed maybe? It is possible to pick the bike's rear tire up in lefties if you are going to fast in the curve. When that happens, with you pushing on the right grip to make the left turn, you would change direction once the rear tire came up off the ground. Same principle as going too fast in a right hand turn, picking up the sidecar, and converting back to two wheel motorcycling, and turning left. Just a guess and others may advise you better. Seems to me that when you let off the throttle the rear tire drops back to the pavement and then you continue the turn normally. Lots of factors play into this to include the road surface
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Al Olme
Posted 7/1/2016 12:53 PM (#89673 - in reply to #89664)
Subject: Re: learning curve


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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Kilometers - 6/30/2016 8:59 PM

Speed maybe? It is possible to pick the bike's rear tire up in lefties if you are going to fast in the curve. When that happens, with you pushing on the right grip to make the left turn, you would change direction once the rear tire came up off the ground. Same principle as going too fast in a right hand turn, picking up the sidecar, and converting back to two wheel motorcycling, and turning left. <>


I don't want to be a jerk but I can't help myself on this topic.

1. If the bike's rear tire is off the ground, baking off on the throttle won't make any difference since the tire isn't contributing to forward motion.
2. When you get up on two wheels STEERING REVERSION DOES NOT OCCUR UNLESS/UNTIL YOU REACH EQUILIBRIUM. That is when the bike is balanced and stable on two wheels. Folks seem to believe the "motorcycle handling" takes over the instant that a wheel leaves the ground and that just isn't the way it works.
3. If [and this is a huge and almost impossible "if"] you did get to a balance point on the front tire and the sidecar tire [like I said impossible] there would be so much scrubbing from the sidecar tire that steering would be all but impossible. There is NO WAY that you could have the rig that high up in the air and not know what was going on because what's going on is that you are about to crash.

The original poster didn't say if he was sliding in the corner. That's a possibility that makes a little sense. If he's going too fast in the corner and the rear tire is spinning you might start to slide but frankly it's not easy to do. It is more likely that there is a mechanical issue with mounting or that the inexperienced driver gets the sensation of going straight when he just hasn't kept enough input in the bars or misjudged. [Please forgive me but it really is usually pilot error]

Stan I know you are an MSF instructor and probably a whiz on solo bikes but maybe it's the solo rider habits sneaking up on you.

Of course, that's just my opinion [except the part about steering reversion, that's God's honest truth] you'll hear others.
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stancotreau
Posted 7/1/2016 2:07 PM (#89675 - in reply to #89662)
Subject: Re: learning curve



Regular

Posts: 51
2525
Location: Billerica MA
Al, first of all thanks for the reply. I too think it is pilot (my) error. Anyone who thinks this sidecar stuff is easier because you ride two wheels hasn't really tried this!

It seems that in my rig at least, keeping my ride to the speed limit or below seems key. The few times I've gotten the "straight" scenario has happened when I am not paying attention to the speed (becoming comfortable .... or complacent). One thing I do wonder about is if other rigs need to keep the speed down? Or is it just my rig? I have signed up for a step class at the end of July, hopefully that will answer some of my questions.

On a positive note: my wife and I have enjoyed slowing down a bit and learning about this new rig. I think it'll help me teach the MSF class ..... sort of reminds me what learning a new skill is like. I'm kind of a bike nerd, I am in my happy place when I am learning a new skill.

Thanks again
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CCjon
Posted 7/1/2016 6:39 PM (#89678 - in reply to #89662)
Subject: Re: learning curve



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Stan, is this happening on pavement or on gravel?

If on the pavement, sound like either you are not turning the handlebars hard enough or the front tire is not getting enough "bite" of the pavement. Rolling off the throttle will drop the front and give more bite.

Another consideration: Too much weight on the back of the rig and very little up front?

After thought: How much lead do you have on the sidecar wheel? At least 10 - 15% of the Bonnie's wheelbase I hope.

One of the best lessons I learned in the STEP class was to lock the right arm in a left hand turn and push with the body. Same with a right turn, lock the left arm and push with the body. More and stronger muscles in the body than just trying to use arm strength to turn the 'bars. That's the only way you can ride all day and not tire your arms.

By now you have learned the rig does not lean in curves, but that doesn't mean you don't lean.

Let us know what you find.

CCjon
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96flgeez
Posted 7/1/2016 11:45 PM (#89679 - in reply to #89662)
Subject: Re: learning curve



Regular

Posts: 60
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Location: Pittsboro, Indiana 46167
I have had this happen on the wife's trike and on 'off side camber' turns. Three point single powered, but tri-pod contact, is not an in-line concept to motorcycling. With a trike differential rear axle, or a non powered hack third wheel, any loss of powered wheel contact can result in inertia taking over. Just speaking from personal experienced and STEP instruction.
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stancotreau
Posted 7/2/2016 7:12 AM (#89681 - in reply to #89678)
Subject: Re: learning curve



Regular

Posts: 51
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Location: Billerica MA
CCjon - 7/1/2016 6:39 PM

Stan, is this happening on pavement or on gravel?

If on the pavement, sound like either you are not turning the handlebars hard enough or the front tire is not getting enough "bite" of the pavement. Rolling off the throttle will drop the front and give more bite.

Another consideration: Too much weight on the back of the rig and very little up front?

After thought: How much lead do you have on the sidecar wheel? At least 10 - 15% of the Bonnie's wheelbase I hope.

One of the best lessons I learned in the STEP class was to lock the right arm in a left hand turn and push with the body. Same with a right turn, lock the left arm and push with the body. More and stronger muscles in the body than just trying to use arm strength to turn the 'bars. That's the only way you can ride all day and not tire your arms.

By now you have learned the rig does not lean in curves, but that doesn't mean you don't lean.

This has happened on pavement. I don't know how much lead there is, do I just measure from rear wheel of the tug to the sidecar wheel? Then do the math? It is probably 10" or so forward of the rear wheel. Thanks for the hints on turning, much appreciated

Let us know what you find.

CCjon
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Hack'n
Posted 7/2/2016 6:56 PM (#89690 - in reply to #89662)
Subject: Re: learning curve



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Measure the lead from bike axle C/L to sidecar axle C/L, not wheel to wheel. Wheels come in all different sizes.

Lonnie
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