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new ural or new hack?
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slapping_rabbits
Posted 7/18/2016 1:58 PM (#89925 - in reply to #89806)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?



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Location: havre de grace Maryland
very nice. that sidecar looks huge!
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redsimp
Posted 7/19/2016 12:22 PM (#89953 - in reply to #89806)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


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Posts: 35
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I am also looking at used rigs to test out the sidecar thing. I found 2 nearby -
1. 1994 1500 Goldwing w/ 105K miles & and Astro 2+2 sidecar asking $6200. Radio doesn't work & a couple other minor lights out.
2. 1984 Suzuki GS1100 w/ a 562 Velorex sidecar 35K miles asking $4000

Advice requested - Which is better suited for a total novice sidecar driver? I have several 100K on 2 wheels - 0 on 3 wheels. The Wing rig looks HUGE, but I worry about the age of the "Zuki.

in answer to the original post - I ruled out a Ural for 2 reasons - I think they want way too much for the old used ones. And the reliability factor. This is from 2012, but worth a read -
http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/why-you-should-not-buy-a-ural...
I see a lot of Urals for sale with very low miles & I wonder - why? A 2005 w/ 68 miles on it? A 2006
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redsimp
Posted 7/19/2016 12:27 PM (#89955 - in reply to #89806)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


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Posts: 35
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I am also looking at used rigs to test out the sidecar thing. I found 2 nearby - what do ya'll think ?

1. 1994 1500 Goldwing w/ 105K miles & and Astro 2+2 sidecar asking $6200. Radio doesn't work & a couple other minor lights out.
2. 1984 Suzuki GS1100 w/ a 562 Velorex sidecar 35K miles asking $4000

Advice requested - Which is better suited for a total novice sidecar driver? I have several 100K on 2 wheels - 0 on 3 wheels. The Wing rig looks HUGE, but I worry about the age of the "Zuki.

in answer to the original post - I ruled out a Ural for 2 reasons - I think they want way too much for the old used ones. And the reliability factor. This is from 2012, but worth a read -

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/why-you-should-not-buy-a-ural...

I see a lot of Urals for sale with very low miles & I wonder - why? A 2005 w/ 68 miles on it? A 2006 w/ 1000 ? Something's not right. If they are so much fun and so reliable - why not 35K, 47K ?
I appreciate the input I got on my other post here - helped me make up my mind.
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jaydmc
Posted 7/19/2016 12:38 PM (#89956 - in reply to #89806)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


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I would never consider putting a Velorex on an 1100 Suzuki. While I have never owned a Hannigan sidecar, I have owned several GL1500's with sidecars, they make a great sidecar bike.
Lots of posts on ADV rider on the Ural, in essence a Ural is a band new antique, While reliability is way up from where they started the are still not 100% reliable. They are a great bike if you understand what it is and that is what you want. What it is, is a great secondary roads "antique" that you do have to do more maintenance on then you would a modern bike, if you like tinkering and riding back roads it might be the bike for you. If on the other hand you want to put gas in it and ride across the country there are many far more suited bikes to do this on. One theory I have as to why there are so many used Ural rigs around is that they supply a complete ready to go sidecar bike that you can finance easily. I suspect that if you could not finance a Ural new that there would be far fewer on the road. When buying a new bike it is usually possible to finance a sidecar with it but most people do not know that.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
www.dmcsidecars.com
866-638-1793
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VLAD
Posted 7/19/2016 1:28 PM (#89957 - in reply to #89955)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?



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redsimp - 7/19/2016 10:27 AM

I am also looking at used rigs to test out the sidecar thing. I found 2 nearby - what do ya'll think ?

1. 1994 1500 Goldwing w/ 105K miles & and Astro 2+2 sidecar asking $6200. Radio doesn't work & a couple other minor lights out.
2. 1984 Suzuki GS1100 w/ a 562 Velorex sidecar 35K miles asking $4000

Advice requested - Which is better suited for a total novice sidecar driver? I have several 100K on 2 wheels - 0 on 3 wheels. The Wing rig looks HUGE, but I worry about the age of the "Zuki.

.


Ask yourself what are you planing to do with your sidecar rig?
Suzuki not a lot different in size & weight from Goldwing without bags. Wing is lot more comfortable on the road but will be no good on the dirt.
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redsimp
Posted 7/19/2016 1:56 PM (#89958 - in reply to #89956)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


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Posts: 35
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Jay - Time is in short supply for me - tinkering and maintaining and repairing on my ride - not my glass of beer. I like to ride 400-500 miles a day on my
RSV when I'm traveling - more if I'm solo. I have no intention to trash Urals - I understand what they are and I came to the conclusion they are not for me. I was wondering out loud why the MILEAGE is so low on the used Urals I have found. I am suspicious if a bike doesn't get at least 1000 miles a year.

Why not a Velorex on a 1100 Suzuki? I see sidecars on smaller bikes, the Ural is only a 750. I appreciate your info - this is all new to me. Pardon the phasing - a "crash" course as it were, in Sidecars 101.
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Alan_Hepburn
Posted 7/19/2016 2:13 PM (#89959 - in reply to #89958)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


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Posts: 7
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Location: San Jose, Ca, USA
...I see sidecars on smaller bikes, the Ural is only a 750.


The Ural is a 750 cc, that generates around 41 hp. Up until 2014 when they went to an EFI system the top speed was listed as 65mph, and it struggled to maintain that! It would cruise all day at 50mph, but asking any more from it was a lesson in patience. We absolutely loved our 2006 Ural, but it did have limitations, which is why we now have a 1994 GL1500SE with a sidecar!
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jaydmc
Posted 7/19/2016 2:13 PM (#89960 - in reply to #89806)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


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The Velorex sidecar was designed for 350cc bikes, the importer seems to find safety of lesser importance then sales, in fact one of their dealers has even mounted one on an 1800cc Goldwing and this was before they came up with their "heavier" duty versions. The frame, suspension and especially the mounts really are not up to a bike this large. Safety must always come first. Larger bikes require stronger frames, heavier duty suspension with stiffer shocks and mounts that do not slip. This link will give you some idea as to the issues with the stock Velorex mounts http://www.dmcsidecars.com/the-result-of-improper-sidecar-mounting-...
If a sidecar is not heavy enough it will lift far to easy on right hand turns, some lighter sidecars such as our Kenna, classic and M72B are to light for heavier bikes for instance we often use our Kenna single on the GL1500's and GL1800s' while this sidecar is to light for this heavy of a bike it is very stout and as such strong enough to take ballast and has a heavy enough shock / spring assemble for a bike this heavy. And as we almost never use "universal" type mounts and of course never have a lower rear that is prone to slip we can get away with these lighter sidecars on heavier bikes. The Velorex does not use a proper lower rear mount, its springs / shocks are to light and the "universal" mounts are prone to slip.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
866-638-1793
www.dmcsidecars.com
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redsimp
Posted 7/19/2016 2:15 PM (#89961 - in reply to #89957)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


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Posts: 35
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VLAD - 7/19/2016 1:28 PM
Ask yourself what are you planing to do with your sidecar rig?
Suzuki not a lot different in size & weight from Goldwing without bags. Wing is lot more comfortable on the road but will be no good on the dirt.


What do I want to do with it? Right now?
#1 Learn to ride a sidecar rig (opps - DRIVE)
#2 See if I like having a sidecar for traveling.
#3 Be able to take the dog with me when the wife has to work & carry more & larger crap when I go to Home Depot.
#4 Gain experience & knowledge before buying a new sidecar
#5 Be able to continue DRIVING a rig on into my decrepit years.
#6 No real dirt/backwoods/ wilderness riding - I got a 4X4 truck for that.

I want a trainer, an older bike to learn on for now. Just like I started on Harley Hummer back when I had all my hair and moved up the power/wt. curve.
I want a bike I can resell and not take a big loss on. Assuming I survive #1-5 above.

On that last note - how do they value these rigs? I look at the Kelley BB price on a '94 Wing and it's $2390 - $4180. A 2000 Astro 2+2 is $1100 - $1700. Add them up and you get a low of $3500 and a high retail of $5880. Other similar rigs are asking WAY above that. Am I missing something?
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jaydmc
Posted 7/19/2016 2:22 PM (#89962 - in reply to #89806)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


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Kelly blue book realistic values on bikes are often a bit low and always way off for sidecars. I assume what they do is take original price and then they have some kind of depreciation table that they use to calculate current value. This sucks if you are looking to finance or have a total loss that insurance needs to figure the value for but it is what they do. They also do not take into account any options that can add significantly to the price of a sidecar, this includes things like paint, steering modifications to the bike, automotive wheels electric trim and much more. At least they are willing to list sidecars. One up side is that some states (Washington where I live) use their values to figure sales tax. This can also suck, not long ago I purchased a KLR for $1700 less then Kelly blue book said it should sell for. I had cash, the seller was motivated Washington state still charged me $1700 more value for sales tax then what I truly paid for it.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
866-638-1793
www.dmcsidecars.com
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redsimp
Posted 7/19/2016 2:27 PM (#89963 - in reply to #89960)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


Member

Posts: 35
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Again - thanks. Much good info. Basically the Velorex is too light for an 1100. And it would make a lousy trainer. I'd be likely to fly the chair, being that I'm a novice, and possibly bring an end to ALL my motorcycling days.
I see the Velorex cars are sold w/ "universal" mounts - which my experience generally means it fits all applications equally poorly.
Good to know - this why I dove in here.
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redsimp
Posted 7/19/2016 2:33 PM (#89964 - in reply to #89962)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


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Posts: 35
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So $6200 for a '94 Wing with the Astro 2+2 is not a bad price then? Even with a non -functioning radio & some running lights out? I could learn on it for a year or 2 and sell it for about the same $$, ya think? I thought the size of the car might too much for a beginner hack driver.




(Wing94.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Wing94.jpg (49KB - 0 downloads)
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Big Tom
Posted 7/19/2016 2:35 PM (#89965 - in reply to #89953)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


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Posts: 78
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redsimp - 7/19/2016 9:22 AM

I am also looking at used rigs to test out the sidecar thing. I found 2 nearby -
1. 1994 1500 Goldwing w/ 105K miles & and Astro 2+2 sidecar asking $6200. Radio doesn't work & a couple other minor lights out.
2. 1984 Suzuki GS1100 w/ a 562 Velorex sidecar 35K miles asking $4000

Advice requested - Which is better suited for a total novice sidecar driver? I have several 100K on 2 wheels - 0 on 3 wheels. The Wing rig looks HUGE, but I worry about the age of the "Zuki.



redsimp. That seems a bit high for a '94 Gold wing SC Rig. What has it got done to it? A 1500 GW will go a lot further than 105K.

Your location also has a lot to do with price. I just picked up a 2000 GW with Color Matched Champion Escort. It has E-Z Steer and electric lean. Everything works even the Cassett player and the CB radio. Bike had 22,500 miles on it when I test rode it. I'm up to 22,900 now. $8500
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Al Olme
Posted 7/19/2016 2:43 PM (#89966 - in reply to #89963)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
redsimp said,"Other similar rigs are asking WAY above that. Am I missing something? "

One thing that is seldom taken into account is the cost of actually mounting the sidecar. This can range from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars. If you have a full EML conversion you could easily spend $4,000 on the conversion and mounting after the cost of the kit.

Also, consider the idea that most sidecars change only marginally during their product life [which can be several decades]. There is very little difference between a Ural sidecar built in 1978 and a brand new one and this is true for most production sidecars. The only items that actually wear out on a typical sidecar are the tires, wheel bearings and shocks..Aside from a fresh paint job, you can make most sidecars "new again" for less than $300. The age of most sidecars is moot, the issue is their condition and the availability of spares.
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VLAD
Posted 7/19/2016 4:06 PM (#89969 - in reply to #89965)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?



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Posts: 411
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Location: DENVER, COLORADO
If someone asking $6200 you do not have to pay$6200.
You can try to buy it for less. And if not this bike it will be another...
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VLAD
Posted 7/19/2016 4:11 PM (#89970 - in reply to #89961)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?



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Posts: 411
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Location: DENVER, COLORADO
redsimp - 7/19/2016 12:15 PM

What do I want to do with it? Right now?
#1 Learn to ride a sidecar rig (opps - DRIVE)
#2 See if I like having a sidecar for traveling.
#3 Be able to take the dog with me when the wife has to work & carry more & larger crap when I go to Home Depot.
#4 Gain experience & knowledge before buying a new sidecar
#5 Be able to continue DRIVING a rig on into my decrepit years.
#6 No real dirt/backwoods/ wilderness riding - I got a 4X4 truck for that.




Any sidecar will be good for you on any bike. Wing has wider heavier sidecar will be little better for right turns.
Velorex lighter and like to fly.
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redsimp
Posted 7/19/2016 4:55 PM (#89972 - in reply to #89806)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


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Posts: 35
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Solid advice, all. Big Tom - the Wing has the EZ steer and " electric trim" and integrated brake. And I know it still has life left - mileage not a big concern on that bike. Sounds like you got a good deal. I was thinking $5800 would be hard to walk away from, but I've only seen pics.
Al - installation is a factor I hadn't really considered, but makes sense. Delivery & shipping, too add to the total for the car. But there also doesn't seem to be HUGE demand - some of these rigs sit for months, so you think they might be a bit lower. And fiberglass does age & become more brittle over time, electric connections get corroded ~ I would think age of the car would be a consideration, if not a major factor.
Vlad - I know all about dickering and being able to walk away. I'm not sure "lighter and like to fly" are advantages to me at this point!
Thanks - didn't mean to hijack the thread (apologies to "slapping rabbits" but truly appreciate the honest input. It's a big step and I don't know anyone local who has a sidecar.
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OldSchool_IsCool
Posted 7/19/2016 6:52 PM (#89973 - in reply to #89806)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?



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Location: Michigan - Kalamazoo
Actually, a big (as in wide) car is easier for the beginner as it's less likely to tip on right turns. You will have a bit more push and pull on acceleration and deceleration but with the EZSteer and adjustable lean, you shouldn't have much trouble at all.

Edited by OldSchool_IsCool 7/19/2016 6:57 PM
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JohnnyD
Posted 10/15/2017 11:21 PM (#95393 - in reply to #89961)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?


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Posts: 7
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redsimp - 7/19/2016 2:15 PM

VLAD - 7/19/2016 1:28 PM
Ask yourself what are you planing to do with your sidecar rig?
Suzuki not a lot different in size & weight from Goldwing without bags. Wing is lot more comfortable on the road but will be no good on the dirt.


What do I want to do with it? Right now?
#1 Learn to ride a sidecar rig (opps - DRIVE)
#2 See if I like having a sidecar for traveling.
#3 Be able to take the dog with me when the wife has to work & carry more & larger crap when I go to Home Depot.
#4 Gain experience & knowledge before buying a new sidecar
#5 Be able to continue DRIVING a rig on into my decrepit years.
#6 No real dirt/backwoods/ wilderness riding - I got a 4X4 truck for that.

I want a trainer, an older bike to learn on for now. Just like I started on Harley Hummer back when I had all my hair and moved up the power/wt. curve.
I want a bike I can resell and not take a big loss on. Assuming I survive #1-5 above.

On that last note - how do they value these rigs? I look at the Kelley BB price on a '94 Wing and it's $2390 - $4180. A 2000 Astro 2+2 is $1100 - $1700. Add them up and you get a low of $3500 and a high retail of $5880. Other similar rigs are asking WAY above that. Am I missing something?


Did you upgrade the truck parts and mod your 4x4?

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Reardan Tom
Posted 10/16/2017 10:06 AM (#95394 - in reply to #89962)
Subject: Re: new ural or new hack?



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jaydmc - 7/19/2016 11:22 AM

One up side is that some states (Washington where I live) use their values to figure sales tax. This can also suck, not long ago I purchased a KLR for $1700 less then Kelly blue book said it should sell for. I had cash, the seller was motivated Washington state still charged me $1700 more value for sales tax then what I truly paid for it.
Jay G


Jay, similar situation has happened to me in the past. Gets my goat that the state charges more than what's honestly owed and the bureaucrat behind the counter seems to think one is lying about the price. Even with proper documentation.
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