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Anyone articulated a URAL?
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Posted 7/17/2005 7:11 PM (#8653)
Subject: Anyone articulated a URAL?


I'd like to articulate my new Patrol, but don't neccessarily want to re-invent the wheel...
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claude #3563
Posted 7/17/2005 8:37 PM (#8657 - in reply to #8653)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?



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Location: Middleburg, Pa
>>I'd like to articulate my new Patrol, but don't neccessarily want to re-invent the wheel<<

Probably could be done ...but..typically light sidecars seem to be prefered to heavier ones for articulating rigs. The extra weight , although good for a rigid rig, is not of any real benefit on a leaner machine. If you planned to go back and forth from leaner to rigid and ride it both ways then it may be a good idea to have the weight though. Big compromise, but this would be the safer option.

>>Jesus saves!<<

HE CERTAINLY DOES

Edited by claude #3563 7/17/2005 8:38 PM
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Posted 7/17/2005 8:39 PM (#8658 - in reply to #8657)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?


Switching back and forth from rigid to articulated is the indeed plan.
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claude #3563
Posted 7/17/2005 8:46 PM (#8659 - in reply to #8658)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?



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I am no authority on articulating rigs bUt can say that the placement of the lower mounts(PIVOT POINTS) is critical to good operation. Think it out...the bike pivots around the contact patch of the tire at the road...the farther the mounts are from this point the more the sidecar is 'pulled ' to the side as the bike leans.If the front lower mount is higher than the rear lower mount the sidecar wheel will 'steer' in the direction the bike leans. How much is correct? I do not know.
Sounds like an interesting project though.

Edited by claude #3563 7/17/2005 8:50 PM
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Posted 7/17/2005 8:53 PM (#8660 - in reply to #8659)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?


It gets delivered tommorrow and I'll start making measurements right away.
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dave
Posted 7/18/2005 4:24 AM (#8661 - in reply to #8653)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?



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Doesn't the patrol have a driven sidecar wheel? To get the 30 degree lean my sidewinder has you would need a really flexible uinversial joint. For help you might try the leaner page ( like minds )http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexitsidecarclub/?yguid=166554875

Dave
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Posted 7/18/2005 6:01 AM (#8662 - in reply to #8653)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?


I figure I'd have to replace the U joint with a constant velocity joint.
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claude #3563
Posted 7/18/2005 8:05 AM (#8665 - in reply to #8662)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?



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Driven wheel? That adds a lot of complexity to th eproject. It means the pivot points and the CV joint will have to line up on all planes . Other wise you would need a sliding splined type drivshaft. Interesting and will probably be a first. I trust you are experienced with sidecars, geometry needed and fabrication. If it isn't right it can be a discaster.
Not sure if I would want to attempt to build one myself but it is an interesting concept.
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pierobassi
Posted 7/18/2005 9:38 AM (#8666 - in reply to #8653)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?



100100
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
The easiest way to articulate a sidecar is the Armec’s or Kalich’s way. Now, look carefully at the pictures of Dave Szkudlarek’s sidewinder. A good articulated sidecar of that type should be very low on the ground with a maximum frame to ground clearance of
About 4” to 5”. It also should be of light weight (maximum of 170 pounds?), with a maximum track of 52” to 54”, and should allow the rider to lean the bike at 30 degrees to the right side without touching the sidecar body ( the installation of a “lean” stop is, very likely, mandatory ).

Could an Ural sidecar meet all of these conditions? I doubt it.

Piero Bassi
Minneapolis, Minnesota
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Posted 7/18/2005 10:53 AM (#8667 - in reply to #8653)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?


nope, but are those engineering parameters, or thoughtful speculation?
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claude #3563
Posted 7/18/2005 12:35 PM (#8672 - in reply to #8667)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?



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As mentioned before the additional weight of the sidecar will not be any advatage when in the articulating mode as it is just dead weight.
The leaning ability as Pierro mentioned, is simply common sense. No 30 degrees is not cast in stone but the ability to lean enough to corner properly is. Once the rig gets over to the point it is 'on the stops' it becomes a whole different animal. I think the track width is a part of allowing the bike to lean. Wider will give more clearance in a right hander but will also create more drag from it's added leverage too.
One of the big points will be, again, the placement of the pivot points.(lower mounts).Heim ends would work okay but large tie rod ends ot even ball joints would probably be better for this application. Heim ends are easy to install but do not wear well over time. If you did go with heims I would go with large good quality ones using the rubber seals that are available to keep as much dirt out as possible.
Hey and don't forget to put your feet down when you stop
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pierobassi
Posted 7/18/2005 1:43 PM (#8673 - in reply to #8667)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?



100100
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Rooskyrider,

The measures I mentioned are for reference only. Kalich and Armec performed the “engineering”. I did not. I will be using their measurements and suggestions to build my “leaner” sidecar. The typical 50” to 52” track is to allow the bike to lean at 30 degrees, and then touch the stop without crashing the sidecar and its passenger. The 30 degrees lean angle is also a “desirable” maximum lean angle. A “leaning” rig like the one built by Armec or Kalich will have the tendency to under steer because of the additional weight on the right side of the bike. Very likely, on the same turn, the rider of the “leaner” would have to lean more than the same rider riding the solo bike. You could build a “leaner” with a maximum lean angle of 15 degrees and be fine in 90% of the situations. However, what about the other 10%? Besides, with a track wider than 54”, you will be taking a lot of room on the road and, when pulling a heavy sidecar like the Ural, it may become.. quite of a challenge.

Look at the sidecars used by Armec and Kalich and try to match the characteristics of those sidecars. These are not “engineering” specification. Like Claude said, they are just common sense. Remember, that the front mount should be about 4” higher than the rear one on average distance of 28” to 31”. The boat of the “American Eagle” sidecar with an appropriate modified frame and possibly wheel could make a good “leaner” sidecar. This is just my personal opinion.

Get in touch with David Szkudlarek. As far as I know, David has been riding an Armec sidewinder for over a year. He got to know a lot about that type of sidecar.

Piero Bassi
USCA# 4219
Minneapolis, Minnesota
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claude #3563
Posted 7/18/2005 2:01 PM (#8674 - in reply to #8673)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?



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As far as homemade articulating sidecars go Tim Miller, I think it was, built on a while back using a Valkarie and a Velorex562 with reported goo dresults. This combination would nto be desirable for a rigid sidecar due to th esidecar being so light. With a leaner though it worked out fine.
Gary Haynes has also experimented with articulating rigs, Contact The Sidecar Magic Shoppe listed in Hack'd magazine or mabe contact Chris at hackdmag1@yahoo.com.
I also agree with Pierro about the American Eagle (EZ Rider, Spirit Eagle and maybe other names it was manufactured under) as possibly being a great candidate. These were very lightweight sidecars and seem to be available for a decent price.
Wonder how a Cozy woudl work?
I do feel th eUral will be too heavy and too tall in th ebody to do well for you. Now if you took the body off and aded a fabric body or..us.....well, that is another story.
Bottom line..be careful as you are in territory that is not commonly charted.

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Posted 7/18/2005 4:03 PM (#8675 - in reply to #8653)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?


I figure 15 degrees would be adequate for a Ural. And fifteen degrees would be way better than none! You probably wouldn't even lean a solo Ural 30 degrees!
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Uncle Ernie
Posted 7/18/2005 5:56 PM (#8678 - in reply to #8653)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?


Well, roosky doesn't want to invent the wheel, just everything else around it. Not sure what you're asking here as you seem like it's going to happen come hell or high water. Everybody is such a worry-wart here. I can't imagine he'll get on the freeway and kill himself the second the paint dries. If he has trouble leaning enough, it will be to the right, so he won't have a problem lifting the chair and losing control that way. Probably the worst that will happen is he'll take out the side of someones Buick. I say go for it and leave the Buick owner a note. And give us the details.
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Posted 7/18/2005 6:17 PM (#8679 - in reply to #8653)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?


"Not sure what you're asking here"
Look at the original question.
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Posted 7/19/2005 12:58 AM (#8683 - in reply to #8679)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?


Original answer: No
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robtg
Posted 7/19/2005 6:06 PM (#8694 - in reply to #8653)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?


Has anyone "highsided" an articulating sidecar? That would make for an interesting video. --RG
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Posted 7/19/2005 6:57 PM (#8695 - in reply to #8653)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?


I can foresee one big problem with an articulated rig: When in a tight right turn, if the point of equilibrium is ever overreached, the rig would suddenly and disastrously swing into a left lean.
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pierobassi
Posted 7/20/2005 8:55 AM (#8698 - in reply to #8653)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?



100100
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Rooskyrider,Would you please explain it ... a little better?Piero Bassi
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Posted 7/20/2005 9:46 AM (#8700 - in reply to #8698)
Subject: PROJECT CANCELLED


I'll try to articulate better what I was trying to say. There is a limit designed into the articulated sidecar past which it cannot lean. Once you reach that limit and keep increasing the G's, you will reach a point at which it will flop over the other way unlrss you have the strength to keep it from doing so. Compared to a hack racer, the Ural is a heavy bike, and limited by the driven sidecar wheel from being articulated more thn about 15 degrees. A hard right turn could flop the bike back over to the left with certain loss of control and probably flip it.
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claude #3563
Posted 7/20/2005 10:11 AM (#8701 - in reply to #8700)
Subject: RE: PROJECT CANCELLED



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John,
This is on eof th ereasons for trying to get as much lean angle built into the design as possible Yes, 15 degrees may be good for many situations but you will be maxed out sooner than you may want to be. Low, light and plenty of room to lean are good parameters for articulating sidecars.
I have spoken to some who have put their flexits 'on the stops' when cornering. Thye said is was not a positve experience for their fun meter.
At that point there is no futher allowance for leaning and the machine. It would tend to go wide in the turn and .yes, depending on speed for that turn, would tend to lift the sidecar.. If kept there, it would act like a rigid rig. This is good theory but to be able to ride it this way would be a trick in itself.
Claude
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Posted 7/20/2005 10:42 AM (#8703 - in reply to #8653)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?


All considered, it AIN'T gonna happen. I'll keep it rigid. May have to recruit a gravitationally challenged sidecar pilot.
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claude #3563
Posted 7/20/2005 1:12 PM (#8706 - in reply to #8703)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?



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Just curious if you ever went to the motorcycle races years back at the golden eagles m/c near tampa. I raced scrambles and short track there in the sixties being from florida originally .
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Posted 7/20/2005 1:29 PM (#8708 - in reply to #8706)
Subject: RE: Anyone articulated a URAL?


No; just moved to Florida in 79. Took us over twenty years to escape south Florida and get to Mt. Dora. I lived in Alabama before that and was serving Sam while you were racing!
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