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Torsion Bar
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akathetroll
Posted 10/2/2005 3:58 PM (#10462)
Subject: Torsion Bar


How do you check/adjust torsion bar suspension?

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Hack'n
Posted 10/3/2005 11:35 AM (#10477 - in reply to #10462)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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That question covers a fairly large area. There are several different approaches to torsional suspension. Some are adjustable and some are not.

Lonnie
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claude #3563
Posted 10/3/2005 3:05 PM (#10483 - in reply to #10477)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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If it is a frienship I there is a pinch block that you can adjust ride height with. The torsion bars are actually a series of flat springs. Some have replaced these with springs out of the front of a VW beetle. Other than that thes bushings can have play in them etc. I think dauntless sells a bushing for this . There is also a conversion setup availble to run a coil over shock from themn I think.
Some have also turned them into a rigid suspension. Ask Kevin Hahn about that at the SKUNK site.
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akathetroll
Posted 10/3/2005 10:15 PM (#10489 - in reply to #10483)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar


Thanks for the advise. Who could I talk to about what they did when replacing with springs out of the front of a VW Beetle?

I know that Jay (Dauntless)watches this list - please contact me about any conversion setup for coil over shock.

I've sent an email to Kevin asking for any suggestions.
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claude #3563
Posted 10/3/2005 10:19 PM (#10490 - in reply to #10489)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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>>Thanks for the advise. Who could I talk to about what they did when replacing with springs out of the front of a VW Beetle?<<

The discussion was at SCT. I think it was Ken Hansen. Go to 'messages' and do a search maybe that will work.
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claude #3563
Posted 10/3/2005 10:28 PM (#10491 - in reply to #10490)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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Dauntless toll free 1-866-638-1793

email: info@dauntlessmotors.com

Picture of shock conversion:
http://www.dauntlessmotors.com/fabrication.htm
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hahnda
Posted 10/4/2005 3:14 PM (#10501 - in reply to #10462)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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Location: Cameron, WI
Hey Wayne.

I never got any such message.
Anyway the Cal 1 I had was converted to a solid suspension. Worked quite well actually if you kept the PSI kinda low.
Wayne has what I think is a Cal 1 frame. If I remember right he also has a 6'3", 250 lb passenger quite frequently. I can see why he might want to beef up that suspension a little.
Not sure the beetle springs will actually beef up your suspension or not. I think the main reason people were using them was to replace the broken ones with ones that were easy to find.

If you remeber Gust's yellow rig, he has the Dauntless suspension upgrade on it.

Torsion bar suspension are pretty good and very little can go wrong with them. Bad thing is that there really isn't much to be done as far as adjusting them. I wish my Motorvation FII had a stiffer suspension also,


Kevin
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claude #3563
Posted 10/4/2005 3:22 PM (#10504 - in reply to #10501)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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Kevin wrote:
>>Not sure the beetle springs will actually beef up your suspension or not. I think the main reason people were using them was to replace the broken ones with ones that were easy to find.<<

Agreed..I guess I didn't read into Wayne's original post enough or it was not clear in this area.
Note..some have added a coil over shock to the Formula II suspension. Some have added an additional torsion bar underneath and linked it to the swingarm and some have added a swaybar. All work well.


Edited by claude #3563 10/4/2005 3:25 PM
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hahnda
Posted 10/4/2005 7:36 PM (#10516 - in reply to #10462)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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Location: Cameron, WI
A sway bar is something I'd like to add to the FII. Maybe some day when I get a round tuit.

Kevin
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akathetroll
Posted 10/4/2005 10:41 PM (#10519 - in reply to #10462)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar


You are right about the size of my mentally disabled son who just loves riding in the sidecar.

I'll have to check out Gust's suspension and have a long talk with Kevin the next time I see them.
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claude #3563
Posted 10/4/2005 11:21 PM (#10521 - in reply to #10519)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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wayne wrote:
>I'll have to check out Gust's suspension and have a long talk with Kevin the next time I see them.<

You will find that even though Gust's Formula II and your Friendship are both equipted with torsion bar type suspension they are worlds apart in design.
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hahnda
Posted 10/5/2005 8:16 AM (#10527 - in reply to #10521)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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I think he actually wants to look at Gust's Cal 1 winter beater-ice racing-blinding yellow sidecar with the Dauntless suspension upgrade, not the FII.

Kevin

Originally written by claude #3563 on 10/4/2005 11:21 PM
You will find that even though Gust's Formula II and your Friendship are both equipted with torsion bar type suspension they are worlds apart in design.


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SidecarMike
Posted 10/5/2005 7:27 PM (#10554 - in reply to #10489)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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Here's another option, http://tinyurl.com/9at5p My daughter Jennifer owns Kevin's old CX500/Cal 1 rig with the formerly welded solid axle. She replaced the entire axle assembly with one of these. Unfortunately she had to buy a pair, so she has an extra one. It just points the wrong way.
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akathetroll
Posted 10/5/2005 8:34 PM (#10558 - in reply to #10462)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar


Would it be any better than the Torsion Bar Suspension that is already on the CAL I? Or is the Coil Over Spring a better setup for the 260 lbs of the son?
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SidecarMike
Posted 10/5/2005 8:42 PM (#10560 - in reply to #10558)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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My guess is the coil over would be better, it just wasn't in Jena's budget.
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claude #3563
Posted 10/5/2005 9:54 PM (#10562 - in reply to #10560)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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The trailer torsion deal can be had at TRACTOR SUPPLY without having to buy two of them. I think some of the guys who are upgrading velorex sidecars are using this assembly. Pretty darn simple.
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Hack'n
Posted 10/5/2005 11:29 PM (#10563 - in reply to #10562)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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The 1,000# rating (per unit) makes for a pretty hard ride. Coil over shock on a swing-arm is a lot more manageable.
To hard of suspension on the early (pre Cruiser) 562s makes the body and windshield shimmy pretty badly.

Lonnie

Edited by Hack'n 10/5/2005 11:33 PM
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akathetroll
Posted 10/6/2005 1:40 PM (#10569 - in reply to #10462)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar


What is a swaybar and what does it do? (Besides the name of the founder of ISOK?)

What is the swing-arm and what does it do?
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SidecarMike
Posted 10/6/2005 7:02 PM (#10573 - in reply to #10563)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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Surprisingly not. I've driven the rig with no weight in the sidecar and not found it to be any stiffer than my Dnepr.
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claude #3563
Posted 10/6/2005 9:54 PM (#10574 - in reply to #10569)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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Originally written by akathetroll on 10/6/2005 1:40 PM

What is a swaybar and what does it do? (Besides the name of the founder of ISOK?)

What is the swing-arm and what does it do?

====================================================
A swaybar (actually an anti-swaybar)helps a rig to corner flatter by connecting the swingarm at the rear of the bike to the swingarm of the sidecar. If you look under the front of most automobiles you will see one.
click here for swaybar video:
http://hometown.aol.com/sidebike00/Page37.html



Edited by claude #3563 10/6/2005 9:58 PM
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claude #3563
Posted 10/6/2005 10:47 PM (#10575 - in reply to #10574)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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An article on swaybars by Bill Ballou.
Also click here for a picture:
http://hometown.aol.com/sidebike00/Page31.html

SWAY BAR
By Bill Ballou

It's easier to discuss how a sway bar works on a car and then talk about the special considerations when installing a sway bar on a sidecar.


In the basic form, a sway bar is a rod that runs from one side of a car to the other with equal length arms roughly 90 degrees to the rod on the ends. Typically the sway bar is mounted in isolastic bushings mounted near the ends of the bar. With the bushings mounted to the chassis/body of the car. the equal length arms that are roughly perpendicular to the bar, are then attached to the suspension. The best thing to do is to look under a car to get a closer look how it's done.


A sway bar is a torsion spring. If for example you were driving down the road in your car and one wheel were to hit a large bump, that wheel would travel upward against the suspension. In addition, the torsional stiffness of the sway bar will be added to the shock/spring combination to resist compressing the suspension. Since the other wheel didn't hit the bump, the end attached to that side is essentially fixed. So the wheel that hit the bump is twisting the sway bar and trying to compress the suspension on the opposite side. If both rear wheels or front wheels hit a bump at the same time or a dip in the road, the sway bar does nothing. Since both ends are of the bar are moving the same amount, the bar just rotates in the chassis mounts. In another example, when you go around a curve or corner quickly, the outside suspension begin to compress as centrifugal force the transfers of weight to the outside wheel. The sway bar react the same way in this case as well and reduces the amount of body roll as it tries to keep the vehicle flat. If there wasn't a sway bar on the vehicle, the suspension would need to be much stifler to resist the more extreme demands on the suspension. The beauty of a sway bar is that it only works when it's needed. Suspension can be more compliant, resulting in a smoother ride when you have a sway bar. It also does a better job of reducing body roll better than simply cranking up the suspension. A sway bar helps to control the darting and diving that can happen as a result of normal road deviations, high winds or the wind from passing a truck, swerving to miss something in the road. The effectiveness of a sway bar is a result of several things but for the most part, the larger in diameter the sway bar is the stifler it will be and the stifler the suspension will be when it comes into play. Sway bars certainly contribute to a safe handling vehicle. I doubt there are any cars made today that don't have some sort of sway bar. Without sway bars, cars, truck, and vans would be tipping over regularly,




Unfortunately sway bars have been overlooked on sidecars. What is typically done on a sidecar, myself included during my early sidecaring, is to stiffen the suspension to resist the tendency for the outfit dive in the turns. It's really not the solution. I have sway bars on both my GL1200 and FJ rigs. They dramatically improve the handling of both rigs. I wouldn't put together another rig for myself without one.


A sway bar installation on a sidecar will likely be a compromise from an ideal sway bar setup but can still work very well. Because of sidecar wheel lead, the sway bar will often be on an angle and the arms will probably not be 90 degrees to the bar. On cars they use some sort of rubber or urethane busing for the bar to pivot in. The're used to help isolate road noise from the inside of the vehicles. In a sidecar that's not really an issue so it's better to use bronze or delrin type bushings. the bar will work immediately since it doesn't have to take up the slack in the rubber bushings before it begins to work. I've used both urethane and bronze and I believe I can perceive the difference between a solid bushing and a flexible one. You will also need to have some sort of flexible connection where the arm attach
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akathetroll
Posted 10/6/2005 11:05 PM (#10576 - in reply to #10462)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar


Thanks Claude, I have a better understanding now.
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BruceinHouston
Posted 10/23/2005 4:08 PM (#11015 - in reply to #10554)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar


Greetings. I have for about the last year been looking at torsion bar options for a home-brew, but always worried about how stiff they may be.

Has she found that unit to be particularly stiff in her application?

Also, regarding your spare, can this make be dis-assembled and rotated to go the other way, and/or--- does it rotate in both directions, so it could be turned to face the the right direction and mounted by some other means than the existing plate?

Regards,
Bruce
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SidecarMike
Posted 10/23/2005 5:50 PM (#11025 - in reply to #11015)
Subject: RE: Torsion Bar



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Originally written by BruceinHouston on 10/23/2005 5:08 PM

Greetings. I have for about the last year been looking at torsion bar options for a home-brew, but always worried about how stiff they may be.

Has she found that unit to be particularly stiff in her application?


No, it has good spring action and rides nice.


Also, regarding your spare, can this make be dis-assembled and rotated to go the other way, and/or--- does it rotate in both directions, so it could be turned to face the the right direction and mounted by some other means than the existing plate?
Regards,
Bruce

I can't see a way to disassemble it, but I suppose a good welder can do anything.
The guy actually cut the plate off and cut the frame in a V, like this
<>, then welded the axle into it at that angle to keep the ride height reasonable. I had expected him to mount it flat, but he said the wheel would set too high and hit the body.

Edited by SidecarMike 10/23/2005 5:53 PM
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