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Leanout
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asg
Posted 12/10/2006 10:21 PM (#21632)
Subject: Leanout


Posts: 24
Location: Manchester TN
Is it common to have the tug leaning considerably more than the standard 2% initial setup? I finally got the BMW R100GSPD (with Dnepr sidecar) to quit pulling to the right, but the bike is definitely leaning quite a bit. My toe in is @ 1 inch, the lead is 13 inches, the track is 46 inches, ( the track is as close as the subframe will allow the sidecar to be and the lead is as far back as the subfame will allow).
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Mark in Idaho
Posted 12/11/2006 10:30 AM (#21638 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 343
Location: hailey, Idaho
I wouldn't say common, but not unusual. I don't have any experts in my area, so I rely heavily on this web site and trial and error (lots of error). My Honda / Dneper has 15 inches lead, with a 52 inch track. I try to keep my toe in under 1/2 inch to reduce tire wear and improve gas milage. To get my rig to track straight, I run with about 3 to 4 degree lean out. Yes that is a lot. It looks all wrong when viewing the rig from behind. Around town, my gas milage is between 34 and 37 mpg. At freeway speeds it drops to 30 to 32 mpg. If I see any reduction from those numbers, I recheck my alignment. I also use my tire wear as a gage. Unfortunately that is an expensive and time consuming method. All rigs are different. I ran into a local sidecarist who's rig leans in towards the sidecar. He swears that it is right and works for him. If you have access to any local sidecar experts, by all means, seek their advice. You will also no doubt, get lots of help right here.

Edited by Mark in Idaho 12/12/2006 9:08 AM
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ignatious
Posted 12/11/2006 12:26 PM (#21640 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Posts: 66
Location: Harbor, Oregon
I've been running less than a half degree leanout and less than a quarter inch toein on my Velorex 562 rig and it goes straight with no pull either way on a flat road.

I am in the process of changing to a Champion Legend rig but I will be setting up the same way initially.

Edited by ignatious 12/19/2006 4:15 PM
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David
Posted 12/11/2006 1:14 PM (#21642 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Posts: 68
Location: Millheim PA.
I agree with Mark, I know a guy with a Harley sidecar that looks like a hotdog and the bike leans toward the hotdog!! I asked him and he said it tracked fine & the tires didn't wear out too fast, what ever that means.
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claude #3563
Posted 12/11/2006 5:03 PM (#21644 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2471
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Originally written by asg on 12/10/2006 10:21 PM

Is it common to have the tug leaning considerably more than the standard 2% initial setup? I finally got the BMW R100GSPD (with Dnepr sidecar) to quit pulling to the right, but the bike is definitely leaning quite a bit. My toe in is @ 1 inch, the lead is 13 inches, the track is 46 inches, ( the track is as close as the subframe will allow the sidecar to be and the lead is as far back as the subfame will allow).

Tony,
Glad to see you have the thing mounted. Have you asked Jay about the setup? I am one who typically runs a little more Lead than many on some rigs. With an outfit like yours I don't think 13" is out of line due to the inhereant tippiness (is that a word?) in left turns. I am sure some like the narrow track width and yes 46" is narrow. Pesonally unless a rig is really a dedicated off road machine I would widen it out to 48" or more. Being narrow does noting to help a rig be stable and there is no real advantage to it unless width is a concern off road. If you make it wider you will find it to be more stable when turning in either direction. In left turns the tip over line is moved which is a good thing. In right turns you have more leveage of th eweight of th esidecar working fo ryou. To gasp this simpe theory think in extremes. Think of a track width of say 12"...not drivablke. Think of a track width of maybe 8 feet. Very stable. Ridiculous yes but it paints the picture.
The toe in of one inch to me is excessive. You shoudl be able to reduce that. Too much will create more tire wear and if you are running an agresive tire on the rear it will become 'non agressive' pretty quickly.
Now , lean out. The only real thing lean out does for you is make the rig track straight. Lean left go left..lean right go right. What it does against you is make a rig tippy in right handers if the bike is leaned out too far.
I am not sure of the placement of Jay's lower mounts at the bike but dependant upon where they are placed toe in can be changed when leaning the bike in or out. You may want to recheck the toe in before doing anything.If toe in was not rechecked after a lean out adjustment was done you could have created a toe out situation without knowing it. Again this depends on the lower mount pivot points.
I once had a rig that wanted to pull right. It was our first sidecar outfit. I had read about leaning the bike out and all of that so on a trip I woudlk stop by the side of th eroad and lean it out. Get going again and the thing still pulled to the right. Stop and elan it out some more. Finally the bike was leaning out really far but the rig went straight down the road. It was scaring me silly in right handers though. When we go hoem we noticed right away that the rear tire was toasted. What was happening was that as we leaned th ebike out the sidecar wheel toes out. This was creating opposing forces when under way. Finally after all the road side adjustment the toe out and th elean out reached a place where they cancelled one another out. That is when it went straight. Bad situation though as it ground that tire off in short order.
Th eeasy way to check a rig to see what is happening with toe in when lean out is adjusted is to unhook both top mounts and then lean th ebike in and out while watching the sidecar tire. You may see the sidecar tire 'steer' as the biek is leaned both ways. If this is the case then you will need to compensate for toe in changes after lean out is adjusted. The culprit is poor placement of lower mounts.
Let us know what you find and be in touch.


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claude #3563
Posted 12/11/2006 5:08 PM (#21645 - in reply to #21642)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2471
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Originally written by David on 12/11/2006 1:14 PM

I agree with Mark, I know a guy with a Harley sidecar that looks like a hotdog and the bike leans toward the hotdog!! I asked him and he said it tracked fine & the tires didn't wear out too fast, what ever that means.
Doc, I have to see that weiner mobile some day. Bring me a picture next time you come to the shop or something. Note that on a Harley sidecar sometime leaning the bike in is the answer. Being as there is no suspension on the sidecar that side will not compress at all when the rider gets on the bike. But the biek will. That ends up giving the bike lean out when underway. Oh, I have Angels' triumph and cozy in the shop to be mated together. Cute little sidecar that will be neat once setup and painted.
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asg
Posted 12/11/2006 9:49 PM (#21647 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Posts: 24
Location: Manchester TN
Thanks for the replies fellas, Claude, I remember reading about your (toe-out) scenario. I am pretty sure that the toe has remained the same. I will double check though. Also I don't know where I got the 46 inch track width from (brain fart) my track is @52 inches...bear with me fellas cause I can tell ya already that I am gonna be a sidecarist for life. I love this stuff...just need to get some kinks worked out. By the way, I initially had a toe-in of 5/8 inch but it seemed like the bike was at @ 10% lean before it would track straight so I increased the toe to 1 1/4 inch. This seemed to help the pull to the right. Toe in does nothing for pull right? If you look at the rig from the rear it is clearly leaning.
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Hack'n
Posted 12/11/2006 11:54 PM (#21649 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout & toe-in



Posts: 4833
Location: Boise, Idaho
It seems we are having that old toe-in thing again with numbers being dropped but no parameters showing how this figure is being reached.
Is everyone in this thread measuring toe-in the same way? (I doubt it).
Track is always the same, being measured from tread center to tread center.
Somehow lean-out and toe-in get measured in many different ways so it's hard to discern where the numbers come from.
For instance, I measure toe-in using the wheelbase of the bike and take my readings from below each axle out to a straightedge placed tightly against the sidecar wheel. Some do it at 8', some at 10', etc.
For lean-out, I use a magnetic angle gauge (protractor) placed on the front rotor with the bike and sidecar weighted to the expected road loading. I look for 1 or 1+ degrees. Rider in place and a ballasted car works well for this. Yep on Harleys too.

Lonnie
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asg
Posted 12/12/2006 6:47 AM (#21653 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Posts: 24
Location: Manchester TN
Sorry fellas, I know this is old news to most of ya! I snapped a chalk line on my carport floor pushed the bike back and forth on the 10 foot line till the line was dead center of the tires. I then took a 12 foot piece of angle iron placed the ends of the iron on soda boxes and pushed the iron up snug against the sidecar wheel. I measured for toe just ahead of the front wheel and just behind the back wheel. Always lifted the sidecar wheel after an adjustment and remeasured just to be sure
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xsniperdog
Posted 12/14/2006 4:11 PM (#21690 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Posts: 4
I have a Dnepr set up on a Virago 1100 and the leanout, toe in and wheel lead was very bad when I started with a subframe that positioned at 13 to 14 inches allowable lead. I rewelded the rear lower mount to put my wheel lead at seven inches(12% for 60inches). That helped significantly with tracking and my lean out became less than one degree, my toe in is less than a quarter inch, and I added a Mercedes stabilizer damper to take the jellied feeling out. I can steer with two fingers now even when my German Shepherd dog moves in the sidecar. I do not notice any lateral shift, but never know if tires wear anymore or less.
Steve & Ranger Boy
Give me a call if you want to compare notes. 336 678-5089
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asg
Posted 12/14/2006 5:42 PM (#21696 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Posts: 24
Location: Manchester TN
I started from scratch (again) reduced my toe-in to @ 1/2 inch. Reduced leanout too. I'll let ya'll know how far my leanout ends up being after I take her round the block a few times.
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gnm109
Posted 12/19/2006 1:17 PM (#21749 - in reply to #21638)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 1370
Location: Sacramento County, California
Originally written by Mark in Idaho on 12/11/2006 7:30 AM

I wouldn't say common, but not unusual. I don't have any experts in my area, so I rely heavily on this web site and trial and error (lots of error). My Honda / Dneper has 15 inches lead, with a 52 inch track. I try to keep my toe in under 1/2 inch to reduce tire wear and improve gas milage. To get my rig to track straight, I run with about 3 to 4 degree lean out. Yes that is a lot. It looks all wrong when viewing the rig from behind. Around town, my gas milage is between 34 and 37 mpg. At freeway speeds it drops to 30 to 32 mpg. If I see any reduction from those numbers, I recheck my alignment. I also use my tire wear as a gage. Unfortunately that is an expensive and time consuming method. All rigs are different. I ran into a local sidecarist who's rig leans in towards the sidecar. He swears that it is right and works for him. If you have access to any local sidecar experts, by all means, seek their advice. You will also no doubt, get lots of help right here.


Harley recommends 3/4" to 1" toe-in.

OOPS CORREECTION:

Harley shows that lean is set to 1 degree in initially initially so that when the rider is seated the bike will be at or close to zero.

Perhaps 1/2" toe-in is not enough. Too much leanout is a sign that the rig is not "dialed in". It's also quite uncomfortable on a trip. I would experiment with more toe-in. I can't comment on tire wear since I never got more than 5,000 on a rear tire with a Harley rig. Front tires and sidecar tires seem to wear OK and fuel mileage was in the high 30's so that's not too bad.

Good luck.

P.S.
Harley does show in a chart in my service book that insufficient toe-in will cause pull to the right.

Edited by gnm109 12/19/2006 9:04 PM
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claude #3563
Posted 12/20/2006 3:30 AM (#21756 - in reply to #21749)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2471
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Too much toe in IS the main contributor to poor tire wear.
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gnm109
Posted 12/23/2006 5:37 PM (#21833 - in reply to #21756)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 1370
Location: Sacramento County, California
Originally written by claude #3563 on 12/20/2006 12:30 AM

Too much toe in IS the main contributor to poor tire wear.


I've gotten great results on sidecar and front tires with 3/4" toe in on a Harley rig.

The rears will wear out at around 6 to 7K miles in any case. To which tire do you refer? Are you recommending less than 1/2" of toe-in?

Thanks in advance.
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claude #3563
Posted 12/23/2006 9:44 PM (#21835 - in reply to #21833)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2471
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Originally written by gnm109 on 12/23/2006 5:37 PM
Originally written by claude #3563 on 12/20/2006 12:30 AMToo much toe in IS the main contributor to poor tire wear.
I've gotten great results on sidecar and front tires with 3/4" toe in on a Harley rig. The rears will wear out at around 6 to 7K miles in any case. To which tire do you refer? Are you recommending less than 1/2" of toe-in? Thanks in advance.
I will typcally set up a rig with 3/4" or less toe in to begin with. From there monitor tire wear and maybe decrease toe in. It seems that if a rig has good solid mounts that DO NOT flex or move less toe in is better than more. Typically the tire that wears out first will be the rear tire. The Harleys seem to do okay with the Dunlop 491s, The police tires or the twin tires on the stock rims. I have not worked with many Harley rigs with the Harley sidecar. Lonnie probably has much more experience here. Also when discussing toe in we must take into consideration how it was measured etc etc. I can say that on many of my personal rigs after the first set up and the tweakinmg that may follow I could not even tell you what the toe in is. If it started out at 3/4" and I felt that maybe tire wear could be improved by lessening it then it got lessened. How much? Not sure in all cases. All in all we get caught up in a numbers game that many times comes no where near comparing apples to apples. Tire wear is the indicator of how a set up is on a given rig. If one wants to try and get better tire wear usually decreaseing toe in will be the answer. >>Are you recommending less than 1/2" of toe-in? <
Edited by claude #3563 12/23/2006 9:49 PM
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gnm109
Posted 12/24/2006 6:42 PM (#21839 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 1370
Location: Sacramento County, California
Yes, the Dunlop 491 is a good choice for a rig or even a solo bike. I used to use them on my 1994 SE Goldwing and they would go 18-20K miles on front and rear. I'm waiting for my sidecar to come in right now. It has been shipped.

The first time I change tires, I will go to the Dunlop 491's or later equivalent. They are a rather hard tire and generally wear very well.

Thanks.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.
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asg
Posted 12/28/2006 3:31 PM (#21885 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout


Posts: 24
Location: Manchester TN
Looking to see if I could con a few of you guys into posting some pictures of your rigs from the rear. I know all rigs are different but I would like to see a few pictures of other rigs (from the rear) so I might compare them to mine. Just seems like I have her leaning too much, but maybe I don't... Thanks, Tony Graf
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Hack'n
Posted 12/30/2006 9:23 PM (#21928 - in reply to #21885)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 4833
Location: Boise, Idaho
Tony,
If you look in Hack'ns Hacks in the albums section here, there are many pix of the rear of Sidecar outfits. There are 7 albums to choose from.

Lonnie
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keyssidecar
Posted 2/1/2007 5:10 PM (#22637 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: Bike pulling to right can also be caused by...



Posts: 33
Location: Arcadia, Michigan & Cudjoe Key, FL
Bike pulling to right can also be caused by the level the rear shocks of the bike are set at. The guy who set my rig up weighed 100 pounds more than I and jacked the rear shocks of my S83 all the way up. When he rode the rig it tracked very nicely, but when I was on it, it pulled to the right. I lowered the shocks to the lowest setting and it took about 75% of the right pull out. I then change my toe in by a 1/4 inch and now the rig tracks great, empty or with my 110# wife in it. Leanout is about 1 degree. Two guys that have installed many sidecars told me the leanout should not be so much that the rider would noticed it when sitting on the bike..... I do not notice mine.

Jerry
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claude #3563
Posted 2/1/2007 5:25 PM (#22638 - in reply to #22637)
Subject: RE: Bike pulling to right can also be caused by...



Posts: 2471
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Jerry, When you lowered the bike the lean out was increased when you were on it. When the heavier guy was on it it was okay for him but not for you. Leanout is the main factor in a rig tracking straight. Toe in is the main factor that will give good or bad tire wear. Tracking and tire wear are the two indicators of a rig being rigfht fo rany given person and what is right for one may not be for another.
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keyssidecar
Posted 2/1/2007 7:33 PM (#22640 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 33
Location: Arcadia, Michigan & Cudjoe Key, FL
Not exactly what Bob Darden of Texas Sidecars explained to me the other day..... he says not enough toe in is usually the cause of bikes pulling to the right and not lean out. I'm not an expert, but I think he is. Also I am just telling what helped me and I believe all rigs probably differ somewhat. I have no uneven tire wear on my Texas rig after moving the toe in another 1/4 inch.

Had lots of tire wear on my 1998 Ural.... it tracked straight so I did not mess with any adjustments..... just figured it was the cheap Russian tires.


Jerry
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claude #3563
Posted 2/1/2007 8:06 PM (#22643 - in reply to #22640)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2471
Location: Middleburg, Pa
keyssidecar wrote: Not exactly what Bob Darden of Texas Sidecars explained to me the other day..... he says not enough toe in is usually the cause of bikes pulling to the right and not lean out. I'm not an expert, but I think he is. Also I am just telling what helped me and I believe all rigs probably differ somewhat. I have no uneven tire wear on my Texas rig after moving the toe in another 1/4 inch.Had lots of tire wear on my 1998 Ural.... it tracked straight so I did not mess with any adjustments..... just figured it was the cheap Russian tires.Jerry========================================================= Too much toe in or toe out can usually be felt as a pull as slower speeds as went coming up to a stop. If bad enough toe can have an effect on the pull at higher speeds too. Sometimes not though. Where folks get messed up is when they try to adjust for pull by changing the toe in itself and not adjusting lean out. I foolishly took a rig to W Va from Central Pa that was never setup We were in a hurry to get on the road and I just eyeballed it a little ran it around the block, so to speak, and left. As far as handling goes it di very well on all surfaces from the super slab to the twisties. It did pull a little to the left more than normal under breaking and I figured the toe in was off some. On the return trip with about a hundred miles to go the threads began to show in the rear tire. No it was not a new tire when we left but was not that bad at all. To make it home we reduced speed and kept leaning the bike out in an effort to run on a part of th etire that still had rubber on it. We did make it but barely. I was stupid to leave without looking things over better. When I did check to toe in we found it had 3" pLEASE DON'T TELL ANYONE...LOL.
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Hack'n
Posted 2/1/2007 8:11 PM (#22644 - in reply to #22640)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 4833
Location: Boise, Idaho
I like to setup with about 1 degree of leanout with normal loading and go to toe-in adjustment for the rest of the alignment. This has worked well for hundreds of installations.
But as was said earlier, Tracking and sidecar tire wear patterns are the best indicator of proper alignment of the rig regardless of the numbers.

Lonnie
Northwest Sidecar
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claude #3563
Posted 2/1/2007 8:23 PM (#22646 - in reply to #22644)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 2471
Location: Middleburg, Pa
Lonnie wrote: "Tracking and sidecar tire wear patterns are the best indicator of proper alignment of the rig regardless of the numbers." That is the bottom line. Some High Performance sidecar have run extreme toe in due to not wanting to rum any lean out due to the wide tires on them.
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keyssidecar
Posted 2/2/2007 8:40 AM (#22651 - in reply to #21632)
Subject: RE: Leanout



Posts: 33
Location: Arcadia, Michigan & Cudjoe Key, FL
I have a wide type car tire on my Texas Ranger sidecar..... not a motorcycle type tire that I had on my 1998 Ural.

Jerry
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