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Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount
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c64club
Posted 7/5/2011 6:06 AM (#58840)
Subject: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



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Location: Katowice, Silesia, Poland
Hi everybody.
First thing - sorry for my poor english.
I was asked by some guy to do strange hack. He rides Suzuku Intruder VS1400 and wants to get a road rig (only for asphalt roads, not ground/macadam/offroad).
I own a Sputnk sidecar that i've attached to my 125cc Honda and it emerged slightly too heavy to ride with my dog, especially in mountains. So I decided to sell it instead of doing some curious rebuiild/weighdown, and then make my own dog-sidecar, but this is is topic for separate thread.
On my local bike forum I'm known as "MacGyver's father" and here is the point Damian wants me to mount the flex-rig with his Intruder and my Sputnik. Struts and upper mounts are planned as "addon" to convert this flex into classic rig and back into flex.
As we observed, flex-mount requires some ground clearance because of swingarm geometry. Hinhe must be mounted directly below the motor (when looking from front), centrally below the bike. And swingarm must run down (not levelly or up as with normal sidecar's lower mounts) to enable the bike to balance right when taking a right-hand turn.

Questions are:
1.In flex-rig, sidecar frame's GC is always lower than bikes GC.
Is it possible to make flex-rig with a bike that has ~5" ground clearance? Is it worth any work?
We did some measurments and tests. Result is that we can increase GC to about 6.5-6.7" by lenghtening rear shock-absorbers (there are cheap lenghteners on our local market). Additionally it will slightly shorten the trail/lead.
2. What type of hinges should I use in this project? First thought was ball hinge from tractor's accesssory suspension. 1" in diameter and standard metric* screw-thread seems good, but I have zero experience with swing-sidecar.

There are no many info on this kind of rig and absolutely no literature available

Thanks in advance for any thoughts, links and ideas.

Igor

*I'm from Poland and we use metric/SI

Edited by c64club 7/5/2011 6:42 AM
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johnW
Posted 7/5/2011 9:24 PM (#58860 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



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Location: Sherbrooke, QC Canada
You may want to look at a recent post I made on my leaner conversion
http://www.sidecar.com/mbbs22/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=9407&posts...
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SidecarMike
Posted 7/5/2011 10:31 PM (#58862 - in reply to #58860)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



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Location: Menomonie, Wisconsin USA

A while back a guy named Tim something did a Valkyrie leaner with a Velorex 562.  It would have very little ground clearance.  I remember his front mount was a few inches up between the front down tubes to compensate for the changing wheel angle.

Lonnie, wasn't Tim one of your customers?

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c64club
Posted 7/6/2011 3:56 AM (#58869 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



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Posts: 195
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Location: Katowice, Silesia, Poland
Excellent work, johnW. That's what I have to do Found your thread about Honda+Velorex 5 mins after posting my thread.
What did you use as car's side od hinges? Will such rod end do their work? :


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I made a website on which i constanthly add photos, descriptions and drawings of my inventions and works. Some invited buddies from forums can add their own arts. Recently I've added ability to post each article in many languages. I would gladly post your flex with description if you could write one. Many of people that I know from polish forums don't know english enough to read sidecar.com

SidecarMike
I could make front hinge with adjustable height if it makes sense to adjust it exerimentally.
The great formula to determine rig's geometry is available on AdvRider forum in GetBack's thread but there's no word about flex rigs and angle change compensation.
Is there any formula to determine how much the front hinge must be over the back one?


Edited by c64club 7/6/2011 6:50 AM
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johnW
Posted 7/6/2011 6:53 AM (#58872 - in reply to #58869)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



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Location: Sherbrooke, QC Canada
Yes that is the type of pivot connector I used. I purchased the 18mm version, which is the same thread as the Velorex conector arms.
The clearance on my unit is around 5 in (125mm), less when hard braking and I have had the front brace scrape on rough roads. That is one of the reasons I added the triangular braces, which I made sure did not protrude under the lowest point of the arm.
I could write up a description in English and French for your forum if you wish. Give me an address to see your site.
The ADVforum suggests having the pivots on the centerline, but I believe that Mr Kramer demonstrated that having the front support around 2 inches (50mm) higher helped the sidecar steer slightly, although I am not sure if that is significant. I have installed mine that way and believe it helps but I have found that it is more important to offset the rear pivot inboards towards the sidecar (1.25-2 " 30-50 mm) to help get an "automatic lean compensation" from the bike.
You will find that when taking the bike off of the sidestand when stopped, you may have to turn the front wheel off to the side if there is a passenger in the car to allow for the side movement of the flex rig as the sidecar tire will not move sideways while at a standstill.
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c64club
Posted 8/10/2011 3:47 PM (#59551 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



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Posts: 195
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Location: Katowice, Silesia, Poland
Unfortunately flex mounting was impossible. This Intruder is too much modified. It's a real lowrider/bobber, and returning it to original ground clearance is too difficult to me (and for my workshop). So we decided to mount classic rigid.
Two days of work. Last friday and today. About a hour ago I have finished making the rig. I'm in big shock (my first rig mounted with almost zero experience) and very happy
Geometry:
-Wheelbase 65"
-lead in 10"
-track 43"
-toe in ca. 2/3"
-motorcycle's tires - radial 170/70 x16"
-sidecar's tire - radial 3x18"
-ground clearance - 2" under front lower mount.
That were starting parameters that I have chosen - "if someting go wrong, then we will correct". No corrections needed. No steering damper needed - thanks to 35"(wow!) steering bar. My first rig and works flawlessly. Driving this outfit is a dream-easy. The guy just sat on his Intruder, run the motor and did some crazy slalom-ride on full parkplace. I was affraid that he will crash a bunch of cars, but nothing such happened. Then I sat on the rig (first >1000cc machine in my life), guy sat in a siecar and we did some ride on local roads. No pulling left, no pulling right, veeery difficult to raise sidecar's wheel. I recommend such rig for first rides. Easy and funny and very intiutive to drive. Only disadvantage (as it's a lowrider) is that it has scratched the ground on a ground lane from my workshop to local hardened road. And the sidecar's shock absorber is slightly too "bouncy" comparing to bike's rear absorbers. But it only bounces and doesn't lift sidecar's wheel. It required few trials to lift it, thanks to wide track.

I will post some pix as soon as I find my card reader.

Guy who bought my Sputnik and deputed mounting this rig to me, just started his first(!) sidecar run from my house to his family, ca. 150 miles. He's more crazy than me. I wish him mush of luch and now i'm waiting for another SMS or call from him.

Edited by c64club 8/10/2011 3:54 PM
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jaydmc
Posted 8/11/2011 11:27 AM (#59579 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount


Expert

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The Sputnik stock wheel is kind of light duty for this bike, If the wheel still has the Russian wheel bearings, Change them out. The bike you have mounted the sidecar to will be traveling a lot faster then your 125. The stock wheel bearings do not handle speed all that well.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
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c64club
Posted 8/11/2011 12:42 PM (#59582 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



Veteran

Posts: 195
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Location: Katowice, Silesia, Poland
Thanks for advice, Jay. As I know Intruder's owner, he doesn't drive faster than 50-55 mph solo. Yesterday with sidecar he did these 150 miles in 4 hours.
The wheel isn't stock Sputnik Wheel. It's some heavy aluminium alloy wheel, that Sputnik's previous owner bought because of lack of original wheel. But I will recommend him changing of the bearings if something go wrong.
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jaydmc
Posted 8/11/2011 1:09 PM (#59583 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount


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If he has changed the wheel then he should not need to worry about the wheel bearings. Sputnik wheels were not all that high quality, I imported several thousand of these sidecars to the USA and would still be importing them if I could find the factory. I suspect that the factory is gone as they have not replied to any attempt to contact them in about 10 years.
Jay
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c64club
Posted 8/11/2011 2:56 PM (#59586 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



Veteran

Posts: 195
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Location: Katowice, Silesia, Poland
AFAIK Izhevsk motorcycle factory has gone in early 90s, just after crash of Soviet Union, that's what I know from IZH users.
I have heard of last sputnik model with slideable front cover (instead of hinges) and aluminium wheel, but there was different wheel than mine was.
Do you know this last model?

Edited by c64club 8/11/2011 2:59 PM
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jaydmc
Posted 8/11/2011 3:08 PM (#59587 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount


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The model before the Sputnik was the Jupiter, the nose on it slid. The trunk did not open from the out side on this sidecar, you had to remove the seat back. IZH did not build the Sputnik sidecar, it was built for them. The last ones we received the serial number showed that they were made in 2000. When we were ordering these even though they were suppose to be "new" some had been made as far back as 1993.
Jay
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Hack'n
Posted 8/11/2011 5:09 PM (#59590 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



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Location: Boise, Idaho
Here is a later model Jupiter with cockpit closed and open. Just finished working on it.

Lonnie
Northwest Sidecars



('74 R90-6-Jupiter 005 (Large).jpg)



('74 R90-6-Jupiter 011 (Large).jpg)



('74 R90-6-Jupiter 004 (Large).jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments '74 R90-6-Jupiter 005 (Large).jpg (105KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments '74 R90-6-Jupiter 011 (Large).jpg (104KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments '74 R90-6-Jupiter 004 (Large).jpg (117KB - 1 downloads)
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c64club
Posted 8/11/2011 5:21 PM (#59592 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



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Posts: 195
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Location: Katowice, Silesia, Poland
Nice work. Is it original wheel? I've heard something about aluminium wheels in last models.

Thanks Jay. Now my knowledge matches. Until today I thought that Izhevsk Motorcycle Factory made sidecars too
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D.Bachtel
Posted 8/11/2011 9:14 PM (#59594 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount


Regular

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Location: Nipomo, California
Beautiful Lonnie!
Is that one for sale or does it already have a lucky owner?
1974 R90/6 is one of my favorites.

Don in Nipomo
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Hack'n
Posted 8/12/2011 1:33 PM (#59608 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: RE: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



Expert

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Location: Boise, Idaho
5" clearance rig is possible but naturally will be limited. No off-roading and maybe slowing down on some tight turns.
Most lower mounts here are using 5/8" SAE heim joints (rod ends). Some have used 3/4" SAE heims so anything metric between these sizes should be sufficient.

L.
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c64club
Posted 8/16/2011 5:36 AM (#59741 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



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Posts: 195
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Location: Katowice, Silesia, Poland

I have taken very few photos of this rig because we had small amount of time to finish the rig. So we decided to mount it "mechanically" without any cosmetic works.
As soon as Damian paint and finish the rig, I will post his photos of "polished" details.
Front lower mount will be replaced by ball joint with 14 or 16mm thread as soon as we find a good one. Now it works fine. Damian drove ca 400 miles without any problems.
In september I will add turn lights to his Intruder.
I know that everything looks strange. But Intruder's owner wanted me to do whole work without modifying any element of bike. Everything had to be fully detachable. There was small battle when I decided to weld lower front mount beam onto the bike.The next work will be adding a hook for trailer and building a trailer using Goldwing's trailer body. But this time I will have absolutely free will on how to do and mount everything (sigh of relief :P ) and it should look and work much better. Another crazy idea - addint a 2-wheel trailer to bobber-style chopper :D

Driver's footrests set looked like that:

So I had to think how to mount front lower point and not make it "groundcrapper".

Front lower mount:
1

 

 Rear upper mount - replaces 37mm spacer on absorbers mount.

 

View from rear. Lower rear mount visible - two clamps handling subrfame's tube and two clamps handling smaller tube that ends with ball handler.


Setting the toe-in:


Rig is ready for its first journey. Me in my worksuit.



Edited by c64club 8/18/2011 6:00 AM
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Hack'n
Posted 8/16/2011 10:57 AM (#59767 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



Expert

Posts: 4833
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Location: Boise, Idaho
From the appearance of the cobblestone lines it seems you have a lot of toe-out in the shot with the straightedge tubes. The bikeside tube should be against the rear tire only. You are working with two different wheel and tire widths. Blocking up the tubes will give a more constant reading of the desired toe-in of about 10 to 20 centimeters (for good tire wear). Further tracking adjustment is easily done by adding bike leanout with upper struts adjustment.

Lonnie
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c64club
Posted 8/17/2011 2:08 AM (#59793 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



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Posts: 195
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Location: Katowice, Silesia, Poland
Lonnie Thanks for reply. Yes, it looked like it had big toe-out but it's optical illusion. We were very confused with first look at these long tubes. Sidewalls ot the tubes are high enough to give the same position every time we put the tube next to bike's tires. Rear and front tire were the same size 170/70x17, so I did measurements with tube set against both tires. Tube used to measure sidecar's wheel had to be aided with wooden board. After setting up toe-in we pulled the rig few in other place on the parkplace and measured again. Result was the same.
How to "block" the tubes?

I don't have more photos but can explain something. Lower front mount has constant width. Lower rear mount is a ball screwed to frame and a ball socket with short (ca. 12") tube (original mount from Sputnik). Ball socket's tube is mounted perpendicularly to the yellow tube using 12mm steel plate and 8 clamps. 4 of them holding yellow tube over the plate and 4 clamps holding ball socket's tube below the plate. Sliding the plate along the yellow tube allows to adjust front/rear lean of sidecar. Sliding along socket's tube gives more or less toe-in.
Upper struts are original Sputnik's struts. Rear one is mounted to bike with this strange, welded clamp that replaces spacer on shock absorber's mount. Front one is screwed to frame (it's possible easily because of Suzuki frame construction - lower right tube is removable to allow removing the motor. I replaced one of original screws with longer and stronger one - 12mm in diameter and 9.6 mechanical rating (original had 8.8 rating).

10 to 20 centimeters of toe-in? Did you want to say "milimeters" or my toe-in is 10 times too small :D ? Now it's about 15 milimeters and doesn't pull left/right.



Edited by c64club 8/17/2011 2:19 AM
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Hack'n
Posted 8/17/2011 11:14 AM (#59801 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



Expert

Posts: 4833
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Location: Boise, Idaho
Wow! Millimeters was what I intended to say. I work back and forth with SAE and metric sizing here in the shop since most all bikes seem to be using both standards these days (brain fart).

When setting toe-in I try to use the rear tire only since many bikes have the front and rear offset. Some front wheels are offset for brake caliper clearance and some just don't have the rear wheel aligned correctly. In any case the rear wheel is the one that will determine sidecar toe-in. If both are in line, no problem in getting a true reading.
I set the straightedge tubes up on short 4"x4" blocks when checking to-in and measure from just in front of and just in back of the bikes tires. Some use bricks and different methods (lasers, string, boards, fluorescent light tubes) but for many years this has worked for me.
A magnetic angle gauge (protractor) placed on the brake rotor is great for measuring lean-out of the bike.

I see the lower clamp nuts now. I was wondering why the plate was so large. A shot of black paint and it all blends in.
The Suzuki is problematical due to the very short lower frame section.

Lonnie
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c64club
Posted 8/18/2011 6:09 AM (#59815 - in reply to #58840)
Subject: Re: Crazy idea? Intruder VS1400 and sputnik - swing/flex mount



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Posts: 195
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Location: Katowice, Silesia, Poland
Bricks... That's what I needed :D Especially for sidecar's wheel (I used a wooden board to get the right angle).
My father has such angle gauge. Good idea, thanks

Yes, Suzuki frame is short in lower part. But the lower part is screwed to main frame. I user rear screws to mount the ball (lower rear mount). Front lower mount is welded to these strange plates visible on first photo. In result the distance between front and rear lower mount is ca. 10" greater than length of lower part of frame.

I think that (almost) none of modern bikes are designed with third wheel in mind, so the problems will appear with each rig.

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